[Carl Russell]

Jared, do not fool around with what you hear from others. Take Game of Logging training. It will be the best $500 you ever spend.

There are all manner of “tricks” that people use, but cutting out sections of your hinge is potentially dangerous and less effective for directional felling. The secret to keeping trees from splitting is hinge thickness, felling cut angle, geographic terrain differential, and complete pre-felling preparation.

Some times with large trees you do need to plunge into your face cut in order to cut the interior sections where your bar cannot reach, but that needs to be a minimal impact on hinge length overall.

Many people tend to keep hinges too thick on large trees to try to control them, they also don’t align the face cut and the lay of the land so the gap closes before there tree hits the ground, and they try to chase the fall of the tree with a rapid. It instead of bore cutting and using trigger wood.

If you take GOL you will learn that there are a few simple basic rules and measurements that you can apply over and over again for every single tree. Consistency will lead to safety.

I posted a link recently in a thread started by Daniel Grover about chainsaw training. I have seen classes with complete novices together with 50 veteran loggers, and everybody says that they learned extremely important methods and techniques.

Carl

• This reply was modified 9 years, 2 months ago by Carl Russell.

[Carl Russell]

Nice…..

Carl

[Carl Russell]

All I can say Jared is that I don’t go right out and ask my horses to pull big heavy loads. The horses I am working now have a lot of experience pulling large loads, but I always find light work to warm them up on, and to watch their response.

That is why I mentioned before to start with smaller logs and build up. If you leave all the heavy logs to move later, it will not be a suitable recipe. I mix in heavy with light to maintain confidence.

I cannot tell you exactly what I look for to determine if I should continue or stop. It has to do with their attitude. Are they eager? Are they working together? Heavy breathing is good, but you should manage that and allow them to catch their breath. Like Brad says, you have to put yourself in their position. How would you pace yourself if you had a big pile of firewood and a wheelbarrow with a long steep uphill to the woodshed, and a limited amount of time to get it moved? Then figure out what that means for this team in that situation.

I want to say that it has been brought to my attention that “cheating” carries negative connotations. I only use it here in its most pragmatic definition. ” (intransitive) To violate rules in order to gain advantage from a situation.” Gaining advantage over physics, not being nefarious or ill-intentioned.

I should also point out that this is a craft, and shortcuts that contribute to personal success and competency are the name of the game. People who want to judge others on the use of imposed standards have some other purposes. I personally never have halters under bridles, I feel it is unnecessary, but I have never suggested that others are somehow shirking their responsibility if they choose differently. And I don’t judge anyone on using a certain method that I do not. All I can do is rationalize my own choices…..

Good luck, Carl

• This reply was modified 9 years, 2 months ago by Carl Russell.

[Carl Russell]

While Donn’s assertion is reasonable, just think about the purpose for thearch. We are trying to lift the weight of the log off the ground. That means we are using the horses to pull a fulcrum over the axle to lift the log. If the evener is set lower than the hitch point, you are basically giving up mechanical advantage. You have just taken ahold of a lever that is shorter than the point of draft.

If your evener is on top of the pole it will pull it down, so if you want to use the pole as ply our fulcrum, you can probably get away with setting your evener on top of the pole, with the hitch point higher, but then we get back to high pole and horses pushing vs lifting.

Dragging weight is different than lifting weight, so even though you could get away wit an evener lower than the hitch point for light work, with heavy logs, and the shorter fulcrum, you will get pole lift. When the pole comes up between the horses they lose maneuverability. One may be able to move the weight, but you won’t be able to direct it very well.

Here is a pic I took today. I still haven’t measured the height yet Jared, but you can see the follow through from evener to hitch, and down to the log.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 2 months ago by Carl Russell.

[Carl Russell]

Correct.

[Carl Russell]

I have two log carts, plows, cultivators, and mowing machines, all with eveners below the pole. I have a wagon and a couple of sleds that all have the eveners above the pole. I think for stepping over, a high pole front and back makes sense. If the evener is above a high pole, the suspension of the D-ring would not work. I am reasonably sure that the evener height is the same height as the hitch height on the Barden Cart…. or it should be close, even with the evener under the pole.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I just thought of a few more things regarding power, stamina, and cheating. I know many people who look at working animals, and at weight, think that it is a matter of making strong animals to move heavy weight…. and while that is true to some extent, honesty, and workabilty are much more important than strength alone……. and the humility and creativity of the teamster is even more important than that.

Many years ago I had a young man come to shadow me as part of his highschool senior project. He was a 4-H ox teamster and had just started hanging out with pullers. After watching me work with my Holsteins, moving really big white pine logs from trees with 1200 bf, cutting saplings in the way of the best approaches, taking extra time felling trees in optimum position, using bobsled on individual logs, he said “Man you go out of your way to make it easy for them”!!! Yep, that’s right… that’s the point.

One of my mentors always said “It’s not the size of the hitch, but the number of logs on the landing at the end of the day that counts”….. and by this he meant logs piled neatly in a place where work could continue, and log trucks could reach them. We are working animals not just pulling weight.

Last winter I had an intern. A relatively small woman whom had never run a chainsaw much and wanted to learn as part of her work here. I have a very small Husky that starts easy, and was an ideal size for her to handle easily. I realize that I am pretty big and somewhat powerful because I use my body often, but I also know how to pace myself, and to use ergonomics to my advantage. To me the time spent with a small saw actually tires me out more than when I use my 70cc Husky. So at some point I said to her that I find that a larger more powerful saw actually saves me energy at the end of the day because of how I handle it, and she said she wanted me to show her. I rest the saw against my hip or thigh when carrying it, I rest the saw on the tree trunk when delimbing, and I always move my feet and position the saw so as to hold my balance under the weight of the saw….. Her response was “You’re cheating”…. well duh!!!She started using the big saw, and verified my assertion.

So the arch is a fantastic piece of equipment, and it is what you are working with now, and it can be used very effectively with large diameter logs, but don’t box yourself into that one perspective. The idea is to get those logs to the landing in a way that builds your relationship with those horses. Cheat the reality. Figure out how to make it happen, whatever that means, because it won’t be the last time you’re faced with this….. especially if you are successful.

Make it easy for them. Be a proud cheater.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Jared, about the doubletree position and draft lines.

Ideally you want the evener to be in line with the hitch point. If it is below then the draw will tend to lift the pole which will make handling difficult. However, if you move your arch ahead of the axle pivot point the weight of the logs will come down on the pole counteracting the lift because of the misalignment of draft with evener and hitch point.

In this way you are also increasing mechanical advantage by improving the fulcrum. The draft of the log mass will pull back on the arch which will cause it to rotate upward and backward over the axle, lifting the pole, but with the weight of the log hitched forward of the pivot the mass of the log being pulled will actually help to lift it off the ground….. Putting the power of the horses into the equipment in a way that augments their exertion.

Carl

• This reply was modified 9 years, 2 months ago by Carl Russell.

[Carl Russell]

Hard to know exactly. These types of things need to be worked out specific to the horses and conditions, but if you start with an easy pull, then get into harder pulls, and back to easier, you should use them well.

If you can use a “cradle” hitch with the big logs it will help lifting the logs. That is using two chokers at once, each opposite the other, with choker hooks low on each sides of the log. That way the lift will be from the bottom of the log, not from the top where it will be with one choker.

Also it is my preference to work the horses in steps. Start them. Stop, check chains, etc make sure things look good, go again, but stop the, before they get ready to stop on their own. Sometimes they are feeling really good, and you can let them step out 10-20 yards on the first draw, but the point is to not grab and go the whole distance. If they can move it, they can pull it the whole way, the trick is to keep them wanting to. You can tire a horse faster by going too far too fast than you can with a heavy load moving methodically.

A good horse will go farther than they should, so you should watch them closely. If they are keeping a fast pace, it doesn’t necessarily mean they are having an easy time. I like to stop them while they are still in a power walk, exerting good power, not too fast, or slowing down too much. They will quickly figure out if you are keeping them full of power or letting them wear themselves out, and that is when you will run into problems. if they get used to running out of steam, they will be less likely to try again. It may seem counterintuitive to stop them so frequently, but do it. I have found significant returns. And look for ideal places to stop…. Like before they get hung. Choose a nice little slope where the starting will be easier. They’ll remember that and start with power every time.

They are working for you, but you have to be right in there with them, reading their reactions, and managing their exertion. Sometimes horses that are not in shape, or not used to heavy loads can get pretty nervous, so keeping them focused on your leadership is important, because nerves again can wear a horse out faster than heavy weight.

The reason I mention the cradle hitch is because you can always find some way to cheat. You will always have limited power when working with horses, so having a lot of tricks up your sleeve will be important. This is where the work gets really interesting for me. What can I do with my mind to make this physical work easier? Is there another device that I can use, that may take a bit more time, but can make the work easier, and therefore effective? Maybe a skidding pan, or stone boat under the logs behind the arch, etc.

Using rolling hitches to ease the starting weight by getting the log to roll before they get under the full weight. Momentum can be a huge confidence builder. Drawing off line can do something similar as it is easier for them to pull the end of the log sideways than than dead ahead. If you get hung on a log that they just can’t move, don’t despair, just come back to it, change your perspective. If you can keep them willing by working on something else, when you come back they will try again.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Jared, first of all, let me just encourage you to have frank discussions of cost and value with the landowners who want you to work for them. There is a tendency to discount infrastructure development in woodlands because with heavy all-terrain equipment there is very little investment required. When economic incentive is driving the approach to forestry, then only those aspects of forestry, conservation, or infrastructure development that don’t impact the financial return are considered…. which often is very little. In other words, the less time the operator takes, the more money they can pay for the timber extracted.

If we look at timber harvesting as a silvicultural tool, and that our primary objective is to improve residual value per acre, then logging operations can, and in my mind should, be investments in practices that increase future value, or reduce cost. Access infrastructure includes assets that will remain with the land into perpetuity, and will reduce the cost of all future timber harvesting operations, thereby increasing the net value of the timber accessed by those improvements. Landowners should be encouraged to pay for the building and installation of trails, roads, landings, culverts, and bridges. Not only will these investments increase their long term gains, but they will increase other values of multiple uses like water quality, recreation, and personal reward from having year-round effective access. By bearing those costs, they reduce the financial burden on the operator, and can have higher expectations for high quality workmanship.

Anyway, there are instances like this where LO are not interested in having a permanent bridge…. well actually no permanent roadways with the need for a bridge. This stream is bordered by two hay fields, and they actually have a pretty good ford if they don’t want to drive around by existing roads. We are pulling logs to a site for a portable mill, otherwise we would likely just land the logs in the field near the woodlot.

I like the bridge at 20′ long. I think that I would probably only use 6×6, and not use the 6×8. the 6×8’s are made to create exposed ridges so that tire chains don’t chew up the entire surface… makes them last longer. I might even use some 1″ spacers to let water drain off the surfaces to let the timber dry out better. it might last longer, and make each section lighter. I think I would make three 3′ wide rafts as 12′ is just overkill for a horse operation, and the 3’ers would be a little easier to handle if you don’t have machinery. Entering and exiting the bridge would be improved if the ends were tapered into ramps.

I don’t know, but I suspect one could also mix 4×4 with 6×6 to also reduce weight and still be able to handle horses with logs. I don’t think they cost that much to make. The question is what do you do with them when you’re not using them so that they don’t just rot away…. I don’t know. I haven’t had such a need for them until now so I just haven’t looked into it much. I may make up a small set this summer from my own sawmill and experiment.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Here is the link to VT Dept of Forests and Parks diagrams , material, and specifications.

http://fpr.vermont.gov/forest/your_woods/harvesting_your_woodlots/skidder_bridge

[Carl Russell]

Brad, I think we could get away with making them a bit lighter. These worked okay, but that are heavy as hell, and if the situation was t as perfect, setting them in place could be problematic. I’m sure your tractor would be a huge asset in such a task. Just so you know, Ben made a set a few years ago. I think he’s using them this winter so I asked another friend.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Here is the link to a clip I made this morning. I didn’t have time to get into the details I covered above, but you should be able to see that with a reasonable resistance trigging the wheels, and with the horse stepping back, I can press against the outside end of the single tree and lift the pole end to hitch tightly. When I sit on the end of the pole you can see that the market straps are still slack even though I am well over two hundred pounds. With three out of four traces hitched, you have a 3:1 reduction when pushing against that last unhitched hook, so you can lift a pretty heavy pole…..

[Carl Russell]

Josh, I haven’t had a chance to use this commercially yet. I have used it around the farm to move some wood. The fact that it is so light, maneuverable, and smooth in operation lends it easily to many different situations.

It is currently set up for use with a single horse, so that is limiting to some extent because I have more horsepower than that. I have several other devices used with the team that I can eaily move large volumes of sawlogs and tree length firewood, but there are always small logs and odd shaped and small pieces of wood that I just can’t afford to wrap a chain around. These pieces are also difficult to bunch together into quantities that make it worthwhile to transport using my hitchcarts or sleds.

I have theorized that a rig like this could make loading and transport of these very lowgrade products more feasible because of easy loading and the incredibly efficient way that it travels across challenging terrain. My kids and I cleared an old log landing to use for a shooting range. It had been 30 years since I had it open for logging use, and there were many hardwood saplings 2-8″dbh. Since I wanted the area cleared I decided to try out the wagon per my theory. These stems were 12-20 feet long when delimbed, or cut to that length if larger and longer. I couldn’t see wasting animal power to twitch them around, so I used my hand-held tongs and bunched them by hand into thre or four piles. I may have pulled them 20-30 feet at the most, but many were just a simple reordering.

Using the single horse I was able to park the rig close to each pile and hand load 1/2 cord quickly and easily. I transported the loads down to the house which was about 1500 feet away in a matter of 5 minutes. Turn time between loading, unloading and traveling both ways was about 30 minutes. There is a steep hill that we go down loaded, and the disc brakes worked great to hold the load back. The horse hardly worked at all, and the pieces were very easy to load and unload by hand.

In all I cut about 2 cords of wood which some would argue was marginal firewood, mostly Grey, paper, and yellow birch, and soft maple, limbwood sized, but it will burn. It could be said to be worth $75/cd log length where I landed it. I didn’t count the exact time for the entire project, but there was a few hours of saw work, a few more hours of hand bunching, and similar for transport…. So 5-6 hours into $150 is $25-30/hr which is commercially viable as a compliment to more lucrative products like sawlogs.

There are plenty of limitations, not the least of which is cost. At $10,000 delivered to USA, it would take a lot of wood to cover that. The upside is that it has top of the line world class workmanship and will last for a long time. It is easily modified to fit the use by lengthening, or shortening the main beam, and the amount of exertion that it relieves from the horse can go a long way in making animal power more effective.

Another issue in my mind is fitting it into the typical operation. I am making a pole for it to hitch the team up, as I rarely work singles separately, which is where this would ultimately shine. A chopper twitching with one, and another person running another single on the wagon could move a lot of wood, but I do not have, nor do I know many horseloggers who have an operation that has more than one person on a regular basis.

This spring I am working on a small job, 20 MBf of hemlock and pine for a custom timber frame. We are pulling from three fairly distant locations. The longest skid is about 1/2 mile. Currently there is good snow cover, and I intend to use sleds, but I don’t see much resilience to this winter, and if the sledding gets tough, I will be using the wagon with the team, and loading it similarly to the way we use the bobsled and scoot.

I’ll keep you posted, Carl

• This reply was modified 9 years, 3 months ago by Carl Russell.

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[Carl Russell]

Great idea Brad, important topic. You have a good perspective to share from.

Good luck, Carl

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