[Carl Russell]

Thi sled was made by my then 12 YO, with some guidance from me, to be used with his young steer. I think the design fits your description. It is pretty small and light, and could be used by two humans easily.

Rather than shafts you could attach a tongue with a handle for steering and pulling.

I post this too for the runners. These are 2 1×8’s nailed together and stood on edge. The elevated sled will slide better, and get your logs up for less friction. You could attach skis for shoes if you wanted.

Chain logs to one bunk so the sled can swivel under the load for better steering. Bunks are just 2x4s. The top one spans both runners. There is a second below as a spacer and to hold runners vertical.

Took a 12yo about 4 hours to build. Oh yeah, there is 3/4 inch threaded rod across the front inside a wooden spacer to reinforce the pulling.

Have fun, Carl

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[Carl Russell]

The main thing to make sure is that the neck yoke and evener lengths coincide.

[Carl Russell]

Hey Ed, you are doing great with those horses. You clearly have good communication with them, and they are comfortable following your guidance.

I am going to make a comment that in no way diminishes the achievement that I see in the way you work your horses. I am only making it out of concern for your safety, and for the opportunity to increase awareness in this community.

I would like to see you spend less time (read none) standing between logs that are attached to the log cart. I know that it can be cumbersome sometimes to get in a better position, and when horses are so calm it may not seem too risky, but it really is a very difficult position to get out of if something goes sideways.

Just for the record, this holds true in my mind, and from early training working with old time woodsmen, even when working with machinery. It also pertains to any live portion of an opening….. A knot being tied in a rope should not include fingers reaching through a loop, a chain being used to choke logs should be disconnected….etc.

Keep your body and all limbs out of the bight. Public service announcement of the day…..

Keep up the good work, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Yes Mike you can.

[Carl Russell]

Yes, 341 MacIntosh Hill Rd, Randolph, VT 05060

[Carl Russell]

I have detailed plans for the Barden style log arch/cart…. as pdf or I can get them printed out. There are 12 detailed pages including pictures and mechanical drawings. I’ll attach a few examples below….

I would like to find a way for modest fees to be used to the benefit of DAPNet. I think Les was charging $10/set. They are easily worth that much. What do you think? $20?

I haven’t worked out the details with Donn yet, but if you sent a check made out to DAPNet, I would send you the plans, and the check on to Reva.

Carl

• This reply was modified 9 years, 4 months ago by Carl Russell.

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[Carl Russell]

I agree with Mitch.

[Carl Russell]

I cannot answer the question about design updates being new or continuing on historical precedent, but I can say that the short shafts are very effective.

I haven’t used them in a team set up, but as far a as I can see, there is no difference in that situation, there are just two sets.

One major difference between the Swedish shaft and American shaft system is that the Swedish style are also traces, and therefore are attached to a singletree. As such they are not fixed. They shift for and aft, and side to side. This gives the horse the ability to turn its body off line without being restricted by the shafts. It also must be like this to keep draft evenly weighted on the shoulder as the horse is turning.

As far as holding back, or backing, the short shafts work great, when using a Swedish harness, or D-ring with the draft attachment. Because the shaft is a trace it comes to draft at an appropriate angle, as opposed to the conventional American design with shafts high and parallel to the ground. The Swedish design seems to have draft-appropriate leverage against the load. He horses appear to be quite comfortable handling the weight against their britchen.

Anecdotally, I find my horses to be very comfortable with this setup. I am not prepare to say that it is better, but it has advantages that encourage me to look for ways to use the deign more often. I have worked myself, and seen many others working with misaligned and oddly variable setups, and still work gets done, so trying to rate this seems futile.

My main concern with bringing Swedish equipment to US is in helping people use existing American harnessing conventions. It has been a snap to use the D-ring harness, which is very similar to the Swedish harness. The draft attachment tongues just clip into the D-ring at the rear side strap attachment. I don’t see it being nearly that easy with any other styles.

I see nothing wrong with the conventional pole system for teams. In fact that method is used throughout Scandanavia and Europe, so the double shaft system is not a necessity. It just saves time and equipment when transitioning horses from single horse work to the team, or from one piece to another. You don’t need eveners or neckyokes, and there is no difference if the horse is single or in the team.

I personally am not interested in trying to realign my harnessing systems to equipment, and I think many people share that sentiment. The Swedish designer whom I am working with is cognizant of that, and incorporates flexibility in his designs, so that people can attach to it in ways that make the equipment functions for them……. Within limits. He is a highly skilled and knowledgable craftsman, and has many aspects thought out and measures to perfection, but it is a simple matter to change draft attachments to fit the needs of the teamster.

Hope that helps, Carl

[Carl Russell]

No, but I made boiled cider this year. Boiled cider down to syrup. Tastes like apple flavored molasses, and just about as thick….. Wicked good on pancakes.

Sorry, that didn’t help answer your question…..

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Great to see some new and different voices. Thanks Ron for the synopsis of Clinton Anderson’s work.

It is because of threads like this that I am so pleased to be a part of this forum.

Thank you Joel for your great post. I think some discussion about anxiety is really important here, as I think it speaks directly to Carl’s original post.

I also think it is great because it really points out the fact that we are all always learning from our situations, and that we have changeable living creatures we are working with. I have tons of experience in the woods, not only with the equipment, and the purpose, but with systems, and the use of draft animals therein, but I still find myself facing horses that sometimes come to work with a different attitude than I expect.

Part of our anxiety stems from that phenomenon of receiving an unexpected reaction from our horses. I think we all can fall into a certain complacency regarding our expectations. I have found that moving forward has everything to do with how we react to that realization. If we feel undermined, we will have a bigger challenge, frustration and anxiety go hand in hand sometimes, and it is very difficult to communicate with horses in that state.

One example of how horses can pick up on anxiety is illustrated in an experience I had a few years ago. I was brushing for the umpteen thousandth time my gelding. It was in the midst of the State legislative session, and I had been deeply involved with some challenging agricultural advocacy. As I was brushing the horse, an activity that I specifically see as the first step for setting the stage of comfort in working, I was also having an argument in my head with an opposing advocate. At a certain point I looked up at my horse and saw that he was stiff, head up, ears back, and watching my every move….. far from relaxed. My first thought was, what’s eating him… like it was his issue, then I clearly saw that it was what was eating ME. What happened next is part of a larger discussion that I will expand on next.

If confidence is the opposite of anxiety, and confidence is fundamental to leadership, how are we supposed to be good leaders if we are uncertain about what we are doing? If confidence come from experience, how do we get enough experience to be confident enough to be comfortable and not anxious? These are circular thoughts that will drag us down, but it is fundamental to our effort.

I have learned a few things about anxiety that have helped me with this. It is extremely difficult to envision sometimes because we feel anxiety as an involuntary reaction…. and to some degree it is, but the reality is that we are actually making it happen. One of the ways that this fact is shielded from our view is that a big source of anxiety response is related to our minds being on something else, or somewhere else, other than where we are, or what we are doing.

I don’t want to over-complicate this, but even the feeling of complacency that a certain series of behavior is expected, is in fact an artificial construct that our minds are occupied with. When we are faced with reality that is different than what we expect, our minds cannot resist the reaction, and our bodies follow. I don’t want to oversimplify this, but clearing my mind and just focusing on what is right in front of me is the first step.

It is not a simple practice, and to some degree feels disingenuous at first. I am really frustrated, I am really let down, or I am really scared, so I shouldn’t fake otherwise. But I am also very uncomfortable with the feeling of anxiety, and as a functioning partner/leader I need to make myself comfortable first and foremost, and I know that allowing my heart to race, or to be hurried, or frustrated, or flushed, are all unnecessary contributions.

This is a huge part of what I have learned from horses. They are always present, not preoccupied with externalities, and to work, communicate effectively with them, I must be present also. I have learned that anxiety is not what separates us from being present, it is the reaction to not being present.

When I find my horses, or any horse, responding differently than I expect, I am quickly aware of the fact that I am somehow doing something that distracts me from the present. It is easy to see the horse’s action as being out of the ordinary, but I have learned to see my reaction to THAT as an indication that I was bringing a preconceived view of the interaction with me. One of the reasons I break down my leadership into small definable steps is so that I can change my focus from my mind to the easily definable present and very near future right in front of me.

As I was brushing the horse, I realized that I was not being effective merely because I was consumed with something in my mind. I lowered my breathing by feeling my breath, regained my vision from the confines of the committee room and my opponent’s face by focusing on the horse’s eyes, and felt my hands as I touched the horse and portrayed to him that I was indeed present. His hair laid flat, his ears relaxed, head lowered, and we moved forward into a productive day. I saved my conversation for the next time I was at the State House.

This is not a simple exercise, nor is it possibly the solution to everyone’s situation, but I think that it is important for Carl and Joel, or any of us to realize that they are not alone. It is not merely a defect in their horses. We all have issues with our horses that stem from very similar circumstances, and it is a constant undertaking to refine our actions and reactions.

I also believe that being able to control our reactions, to maintain presence, to remain compassionate and sensitive, open, are all important aspects to being effective leaders……

Carl

[Carl Russell]

“I don’t think we are teaching the horse those things as much as we are demonstrating them to our self.”

Exactly my point. Round pen work, many training exercises in general actually, is often pitched as a way to work out horses issues, when I have always seen it more about giving us a place to work on our presentation.

The horse will do what you want only when you present yourself appropriately. The complication is that most people are focusing on getting the horse to do something and often are oblivious to the refinement of their own actions.

I think round pen exercises should be about human behavior modification, not horse. Then we are actually talking about developing leadership skills that are easily taken with us out of the pen.

When we think of it as conditioning a response for the horse, then we may need to keep going back to the pen because it doesn’t stick….. And it doesn’t, but not because of the horse, but because the human didn’t develop clarity about how their actions carry beyond the desired response…..

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Hey Donn, I wasn’t trying to suggest he take the suggestions with a grain of salt, I think the suggestions are all good and appropriate, especially since he asked for them. The point I was trying to make was that I have been in the same boat, and it can be overwhelming when you are asking for help. I remember trying so many things, like the water in the ear, but eventually came to the understanding I had to step back and just work with the horses.

So to take the discussion a bit back toward the general training concepts, I want to respond to what you wrote about linking up. “It teaches a horse to turn toward us when loose, allows the horse to be comfortable approaching us when we permit it. Follow us without a rope.”

I am interested in this perspective. I have heard these things talked about a lot. It is at the root of some of what I was trying to talk to Doc Hammel about. I don’t think we need to “teach” the horse to do any of these things. They WANT to do all of that on their own. Apply pressure the horse moves away instinctively. It is their power. Take the pressure off they turn back instinctively, it is their confidence in their power. They only move as far away as they need to, then they are open to returning.

I think that linking up really is us teaching the horse that we understand their nature, and that we are willing to let them do what they want to do, but when we want them to do it. If they don’t trust us they won’t turn, link up, or follow, but they really do want to do all of those things, we just have to show them that they can trust us to allow them to do it.

When I am working with a horse to allow haltering or bridling I will reach toward them with the halter. If they yield, then I retreat, allowing them to move their head back to where they want it. I do that a few more times, and they realize that I want them to move their head toward me when I reach up with the halter. I didn’t teach them to move their head toward me, I allowed them to do it, and showed them that I could be trusted with that action.

Possibly it is just semantics, but I think it is imperative that we know what to expect from horses, and use their tendencies to our mutual benefit. So in that vein, I also agree that linking up is basically catching and haltering, but thinking of it from the standpoint of mutual understanding of actions and reactions, it can be the foundation for driving and working with horses. It just generally is not described or practiced from that perspective.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Carl, I have a few comments about your day.

Trust….. you talk about trusting that horse. I say never trust a horse. Not because they are inherently bad, but because I think I need to focus more on me being trustworthy than on how trustworthy the horse is. I see this pertinent to your situation in a couple of ways. First, you are telegraphing to the horse that you uneasy around her, presumably because you expect better behavior out of her.

I don’t know which comes first (chicken vs. egg) but if I never trust a horse then I am rarely caught off guard because I realize that anything can happen, and if I am it is nothing personal. More importantly though, from your description it seems to me that you are more focused on her breaking your expectations than on trying to be trustworthy. I don’t think any animal would be comfortable under those circumstances.

The situation at the trailer sound like you were just working around her to see how she would react. It sounds nefarious to me. You really have no objective, you’re expecting her to react poorly, and basically waiting for her to do that. I think she doesn’t want to tolerate you if you have no objective.

I mention this because I saw something similar when I watched you at Phister’s last winter. You had a mare harnesses and drove her out to show me how she wouldn’t stand at the pole. She walked out calmly. You both were very relaxed. You drove her in by the pole, easily guiding her into place, she was very responsive, and she stopped and stood solidly…. for at least a few seconds. I thought to myself, she did great…. but you were tense and waiting as she began to get antsy, and then there was no turning back. I tried to explain then that I saw a reward-able moment, but that you were so focused on waiting for the bad response that you expected, that you missed it.

I think the same things is going on here to an extent.

Your description of the round pen seems to back up how I am seeing this. You talk about trotting her, and how little pressure it takes, and how you worked her until she showed “submissive” tendencies. I have never worked in a round pen, but these are very similar comments to those I hear often with folks working in round pens.

I do all of my pressure work in other settings, including open pasture. Rather than pick on you I will try to explain some of my perspective, and hopefully tactfully draw correlation to your experience.

I do not see horses running from a place of fear. I see horses running from a place of power. When a horse runs away from me, they are showing me how much more powerful they are. When a horse is running from me I do not want to reward that, but I believe that running (or trotting/walking) a horse until they get tired and want to give up is in essence only showing that they cannot get away from me. The round pen lends itself to that. There are a lot of other horse equipment that can also be used to subdue a horse as well. It is a common thread in horse training.

Conversely, I am trying to start communication right away. I want that horse to realize that it is MY desire to have her move away from me. So as soon as she responds to my pressure to move I take the pressure away. I don’t need to wait for her to show submission.

I came to a pasture one day and found that my horses had heard me coming, bunched by the gate, and forced each other through into fresh rowan. They were full of beans, and as soon as I approached one, the other took off, and they began to play with me. I quickly saw that every time I tried to approach they would run, so I stood for a minute, then walked with intention directly at them. It took a few tries before they realized that I was actually making them move, but it became clear in the way they watched me. They were taking me more seriously. From that point every time I made them move, I would turn away as soon as they took off. Successive approaches I got closer and closer, but always made them move before they wanted to move on their own.

I opened the gate and pushed one horse through, so that the trouble maker was alone on my side. She is a horse that had been allowed to be disrespectful, and defiant, and was never given any consistent guidance. As long as she would run away from me, the gelding would run too. Putting him on the other side allowed me to focus directly on her. Now as I approached her I would focus my gaze directly on her heart, the spot on her rib cage directly behind her shoulder. When I approached from in front I would focus hard on that spot and push her to turn around. As soon as she turned I would look away. Same from behind, but I would make her run forward, then look away. After about 5 of these pressure and release intervals, I approached and she lifted her head up, I brought my eyes to meet hers, she lowered her head a bit, but not to eat, and stood as I approached to put on the halter.

I am not trying to suggest any exercises, just trying to illustrate how I used the pressure and release to show her that I had something for her to do, and that whenever she did it I would reward her. that she could trust me. I am trustworthy. That my intentions are clear, and that she can respond in a way that I will reward. When I shifted my focus to her head, “Next task, let me approach your head”. She was clear about my intention, and convinced of my ability to do just that. Also she was willing to let me do it because she trusted that I would not misuse her with frivolous pressure. When she showed me that she was open to my approach, my approach had no pressure.

I think that the challenge with dominance theory is that it is just that, theory. In my mind dominance is an entirely human concept. In nature the leaders do not lead by domination. It would require too much effort to constantly keep everyone in order. They lead by being most capable of finding and securing resources and territory, and protecting the unit. They lead by success, and they establish order only when their formula for success is challenged. They are not dominant, they are indomitable.

I mention this because I think that efforts to subdue animals by domination, tiring, or restraining them, may work, but they are not tools to establish leadership. Leadership comes from displaying behavior that is attractive, is consistent, and allows the subordinate to feel comfortable with the situation. Just hanging out with a horse, trying to be equals, creating an atmosphere of cooperation, cajoling her, are all too passive for leaders. Exercises that are basically teasing, or testing horses to find out how trustworthy they are, or to find their behavioral breaking point are adolescent in nature, and most horses will believe they are on par or superior to that.

It is great to be close to the horse, to pat and brush, and pick up feet, but if there is no clear intention, no direct ask, then just seeing if the horse will allow you into her space is nothing more than irritating to her. Have a clear ask. Find small tasks that you can have laser clear focus on what the desired response will be. Don’t try to ask the horse to stand quietly, or to accept your leadership, those are cerebral concepts. Ask the horse to step over, or step back. Reward for the slightest try.

I am concerned that there is a lot of intensity being brought to this issue. I am concerned that it will create more problems than it will solve. I have learned that whenever I have a problem with a horse, I need to try to figure out what I can do differently. I am a firm believer that it has more to do with how you bring yourself to the situation, than how you create the circumstances of the situation. If there are new people, new settings, strange modifications to the normal schedule, then stress can be created that is detrimental.

I remember some old timer telling me that when my mare didn’t pull that I should cover her eyes and pour water in her ear. It would make her feel like she was drowning and she would move. Of course I tried it……. The example may be poor, and I think you should be appreciative of all the insight and personal help you are getting from people, but remember that you don’t have to get swept up in a host of possible solutions. None of us have anything invested in this situation, and it is easy for us to suggest things that have worked for us.

I have had much more luck working slowly horses, with low intensity, using everyday situations for comfort, and put the intensity on my personal work, my presentation, my leadership……. my purpose.

Good luck, Carl

• This reply was modified 9 years, 5 months ago by Carl Russell.

[Carl Russell]

Mitch brings up a good point. I was thinking the same thing, but also listening to Carl, and having some background from a short face-to-face horse-in-hand session last winter, I have a sense that Carl is nibbling around the edges, sort of parked at the intersection trying to decide which fork to take.

My first horse was a challenge, and in fact nearly every horse after that has been untrained and compromised in some way. That has been my journey, and I feel that I have gained tremendously. I can honestly say that I had no intention to take that course. I was much more interested in working horses.

I have known folks who have wasted a lot of time looking for the perfect team, never becoming successful in that search. I think some of this is part of learning how to be a teamster.

There were none of the resources there are now when I was at these cross-roads. There weren’t many work horses, and there weren’t very many folks to talk to or learn from. Part of my choice had to do with my innate bull-headedness, part of it had to do with not seeing any alternatives.

From what I know about Carl, he is not trying to avoid working with the issues in his horses, but is also looking for something more comfortable. I just don’t want my own personal curiosity and tenacity to be a guidepost for choices he is facing.

I do however suggest that this is not a team, or horse at least, to hand over to a hired driver….. Unless it is someone like Mitch, or Lenny….. This also gets back to some of the discussion in the training thread. Even if this was a bombproof team, I would question that work model.

Matching people to horses where the relationship is solely based on a requirement of work, seems a bit like hiring drivers for sleigh-rides, and I have seen and heard of many troubles in that scenario…..

Have fun on Saturday Carl…..

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Hi Carl, I just want to paraphrase some of what we spoke about last night.

I also have a sense of challenge here, and I an not going to outright suggest that you give up on this horse, but clearly you just want to work horses, you have a lot of work to do with horses, and this horse has become dangerous. I for one will not judge you for passing her along, whatever that looks like.

I will also not try to suggest any exercises, as I am not going to open the door for you to get seriously injured. Truthfully a $2500 loss is cheap compared to the possible alternatives.

Both George and Donn made some points above that I see having good bearing on this situation. I agree that some of the round pen exercises could be a safe place to start, and as I described last night you may need to find 110% energy to overcome her attitude. Also finding safety for you and the horse is paramount.

I will though, repeat something I told you. I have no bearing for this, but from what you have told me I think this is close. I have found in my experience that when the interaction between horse and handler is defined by correcting bad behavior, it is very hard to develop trust. I try to find ways for the horse to do what she wants to do under my direction, then take credit for allowing her to do it. Of course when she is trying to bite and kick that is not desirable, but focusing on correcting that can be distracting from the good things that she can be rewarded for. I also think that it is very difficult to ever correct behavior if there is no trust, and that trust may need to be built in ways that do not seem obvious.

I have to say that I have never had a horse demonstrate that level of aggression toward me, so my thoughts are entirely theoretical. (Well not entirely, they are based on similar, but less intimidating circumstances). I have some suspicion that this horse trusts her mother more than anything, and may actually never had much if any work with understanding how to work with humans. From your description of how she acts with her mother vs without, I suspect she may have just been conditioned to go along with everything the mother did.

I personally would start trying to figure out how to use the mother as the primary comfort, and find ways to work with both of them to build trust with the younger. Your exercises of leading to and from pasture sound like a good place to start. If they are comfortable together, lead them that way. When you try to separate them to address issues with the younger, you have found that it is one long string of corrective battles. That is not the lesson you want to teach her. I think you want to teach her that you are comfortable around them….. They may be comfortable because they are together, but you need to take credit for making that be the comforting situation it is. By that I mean express comfort in the way you step, the way you hold your head, and the way you use your eyes… don’t be constantly “checking” to see how they are acting, just act like you expect this to be the very easiest of things they could ever do.

If you have someone with a round pen and advanced skills who can help you work with them like that, then it may be the way to go, but as George points out it needs to be you working on this….. and it seems to me that as soon as you have that young mare by herself you will be needing to address her aggression…. I see that as the first lesson you have taught her…. You are purposefully creating the aggressive response because you have changed her comfort zone without allowing her to accept it….

Again, if this mare (and her mother) came to me as a freebie, and I thought she would fit into my operation, I would start as I described above. However given your situation, financial, experiential, and emotional/intellectual, I would support you moving back to the free lease team that allows you to get the work done that you want to do. If you have the time to dive into this, because you see it as an investment, and you want to go down the rabbit hole, then find a way to be safe.

Tools are important, and you may need some time to get them, and to refine your use of them, but also try to delve down into the situation and find the blocks in the foundation that need attention before you can get up on the roof.

Carl

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