[Carl Russell]

I try to show the horses that I understand how they think and act. By using their innate responses, I show them I can relate. By showing that I can use that knowledge to help them feel more comfortable with me and my actions, they become engaged in the communication.

So thinking about how training becomes work, I wanted to explore how my basic exercises are translated into the working situation. First I think I just need to describe how I see a working situation. I think I see it like horses see it. I also think I had to unlearn to see it like I was taught from a human perspective.

I see work as a series of motions. Whether it is pulling a plow, or log on loose rigging, or mowing hay, or using a wagon. We go this way, we stop, we step back, we stop, we swing left we stop, on and on,etc. When I hitch a team to a pole, I don’t see the pole, or the neck yoke, or the conveyance, or anything associated with the use, noise, etc.

I lead the horse, she follows me, to where I ask her to stand. Often I do this without touching her, just get her to follow me until she is where I want her to stop. If she needs to back up, then back, whoa. I get the other horse, same thing. They stand while I work around them, clinking chains, and hooking things on em that add weight. If I need, I ask one horse to step back to hitch heel chains. I pick up lines, make contact on the bit, and ask them to move on. I may guide them left, or right, allow them to move freely, or hold them back as we move. I repeat the gee, haw, or easy command with corresponding bit pressure. I stop them, give them a breath to relax their muscles, them re-engage the bit, step gee, whoa. Back, whoa. They stand, while I work… Hitching a log etc. i re-engage the bit and move them on.

I may be hitching, driving through obstacles, attaching to implements, dragging noisy machines or devices, but that is not how I think about my interaction with the horses. I am thinking, step up, stop, step left, stop, back, stop. I see every task in front of me as a series of steps required to apply power to perform the work. I do not see anything in long fluid motions, like stream of consciousness, like humans think.

I try to get novices to think ahead. How are you going to move your horses into that situation to complete the task? Choose a placement. Choose an action. Set up a series of actions that are simple to convey, and do not require a lot of translation for the horse. It is not an easy thing for beginners.

So, my early “training” with horses is just that same series of actions. Step, stop and stand. Move in response to my pressure, stop and stand. I do not need to get any more complicated than that. I do not need to expose them to any situation to condition them to it, I just continue to repeat simple secure repetitive commands, and appropriate rewards. Every action is a command that requires reward. The command for step up, is rewarded with a whoa, release. I do not stop and reward every minute movement, but if I make a significant departure from a course of action I reward them. Sometimes that is as easy as lightening the bit, other times it is an outright whoa.

In this way no matter how complex and complicated our endeavor may be, the horses and I are only working on very simple pressure and release, command and response engagements. I move toward them, they move away. I move back, they follow. I don’t try to get them to follow the furrow, or skid trail, or stay off the plants, I show them where I want their feet to be. They totally get that I can tell them where to put their feet, and they let me do that over and over and over.

One challenge for new teamsters is to be comfortable enough with the work to be able to break it down into horse-steps. That is why most of what I work on with novices is the work of working horses. Whether it is logging, gardening, or haying, one needs to understand every aspect of the work in order to effectively apply animal power to it, in my mind. I don’t think that teamster training starts with leather and line tension. I think it starts with chainsaw safety, skid trail layout, crop rotation, hay curing, and mower maintenance, etc…. Learning to do these things in the presence of someone using horses must go hand in hand with introductory courses in line handling, as far as I’m concerned.

So I hope that I may have shed some light on this topic. I watch folks working horses in the round pen talking about the horse gaining trust, and learning to accept leadership. What I see is a series of stimuli, pressure, and responses, move in, they move back, etc. I see this as an excellent method of developing these simple steps of communication, but not necessarily the only way.

The main thing is to see what the horse is doing. See how they see what they are doing. By breaking it down into step by step, then reward can be used for each step, calibrating the response relationship. If a horse is allowed to make a series of responses before reward, the messages get cloudy.

Anyway….. Off to the woods.

• This reply was modified 9 years, 5 months ago by Carl Russell.
• This reply was modified 9 years, 5 months ago by Carl Russell.
• This reply was modified 9 years, 5 months ago by Carl Russell.

[Carl Russell]

So I guess I’ll nibble away at some big thoughts that are swirling around my head…..

First, I guess I can see the analogy of horses being like children to some extent. I guess youngsters are more reactionary than adults, and more physically expressive and responsive to their environment. I can also see to some extent that they are less informed, need more guidance, and therefore are somewhat simpler minded.

However, I don’t really think of my interaction with horses like that with children. I tend to think of humans as needing to be educated, informed, and enlightened about different aspects of our lives. I see the interaction with kids to be one of “See that?, See how that works?, Put this over here, add this to that, do this first….” Those kinds of interactions where experience leads to discovery, and information creates awareness.

With horses, and other critters as well, I see a certain wisdom… I don’t mean inherent intelligence…. more of an innate informed state. They learn to suckle, and walk, and move, and relate to other animals almost immediately. Working with a 3 month old horse is almost exactly like working with a ten year old horse. They are not distracted with needing to “understand” anything, they just “do”, and they all “do” it the same way. There are certain things that horses do innately across the board from one animal to another, and throughout their lives. (of course humans do that too, we just ignore most of it because we are so enamored with our frontal lobe) The wisdom is that there is a baseline of behavior and action, and that is good enough.

The reason I think of it in these terms is because I don’t try to educate my horses about anything. I do establish ground rules, but yielding and respecting are innate behaviors anyway, I just need to show them that I fill that space in their lives. What I do is look for them to do what they do. I give them cues that I know they understand, like when I move toward them, I know they will move away. And when I stop advancing and retreat, they move toward me. When we reach an understanding about our ability to read each other, we move on from there.

I never ask a horse to do something that I know they can’t do, or wouldn’t do naturally, which makes it really easy for me, and that ease translates into confidence and self-assuredness, which bolsters my position as the source of stimulation….. leader. I don’t try to be a leader like a ruler, but lead like a partner in a dance routine….. because when one of us leads it is easier to move in unison.

Like I wrote before, I don’t look for them to perform a certain task, I look for them to respond in a certain way to a certain direction. When I say whoa, I mean stand, and to do that I just reaffirm for them that there is one place for them to stand, and no steps. But I don’t try to get a horse that wants to dance to try to stand still by forcing those parameters, I use that energy to my advantage, recognizing that the horse actually really wants to stand still, and when they show signs of wanting to stand, I allow it. But I also need to see that they are testing me too, looking to see if they really trust me enough to stand, so I need to move them before they move again. In that I am not trying to be in charge to tire the horse, but developing understanding that I read them, that I am in control of my own actions, and that I will not misuse them.

In this way we start to move with each other. I never focus on one particular response, as much as I focus on how well we rebound off each other. I have found that work is a never ending series of nearly repetitious interactions, but not consistent enough to rely on a preset series of actions as much as on communication that can lead through the particulars of a certain experience. If I am not getting a horse to stand still, or pick its foot, or whatever, I am less concerned with the moving as I am with the lack of responsiveness, and we go back to fundamental exercises that refine that understanding.

With kids, being in control of my actions and mentality are strong attractants, but I am constantly explaining rationale for certain responses, setting examples of how to do something, directing the actions from zero. I see horses as starting with a much higher acumen relative to the expectations I have for engaging them. And it isn’t because I have lower expectations, I think they have a higher awareness of the “way” they physically relate to their surroundings. Humans are distracted with figuring out “how” we relate to our surroundings.

As far as other people and my horses, it is an ongoing development. I find that many people come to work with me with preconceptions about horses being trained to work. I know that horses can be trained to conditioned response, and there are many horses out there working like that, so when a person who has been working with horses like that comes to my farm, they have a handful. I spend a fair amount of time just letting people experience the horses. They can clearly see that when I drive them they are more disciplined, and as we discus the subtleties of communication and the understanding of the work task that they are trying to execute, I can see the dance improve.

I use the analogy of trying to draw a line that defines execution. I am drawing my interaction with my horses with a fine-point pen. Many novices are using a 6 inch paint brush. That unrefined guidance is very distracting to horses, especially ones that have become accustomed to more subtle, precise, and accommodating guidance.

I don’t really get too distracted anymore by fallout from the novice effect, because it takes me very little time to get back on track with my animals. I can leave my horses for weeks on end in the pasture and go out for an afternoon with them full of beans out of the barn, only to have them smooth into it after a very brief period. Once we have the cues worked out, and I have a chance to establish consistency in my messaging, the horses respond positively.

The biggest challenge I have with working with novices is that we are constantly working at a novice level, and to some degree I think that sets the bar too low. I think there is a lot of conditioned complacency in the teamster craft right now, and that is in large part because we are finding the easiest most comfortable way to teach people how to work with horses….. but that is another chapter….

I have been working with new horses that were neglected, and they have been reinforcing my practices for me. They were not outlaws, but generally just ill-informed about how to work with humans. I have been making good progress with them with very little “training”….. just coming to understanding.

I recall a day that I think can illustrate the difference between communication and conditioned response, and how a teamster can use communication even with under-exposed horses. In 1987 I had a mentor, Walt Bryan. He was a horselogger, trader, puller….. horseman. He traded for a pair of ponies that had been neglected for a few years because they had just about killed the owners when they were trying to make pullers out of them. He had to herd them into the trailer to load them. He got halters on them and gentled them around his farm for a few weeks, so that they would let him approach and handle them. He got harnesses on them one day, and he decided to sell them.

On that Saturday at the pull on his farm he hitched them for the first time. Mind you, Walt was not a large man. He was wiry, and wily, and a seriously hardminded man. But he was also a artisan with horses. The first pass by the stoneboat found him skating on his heels, horses at a charge, right back out the gate without the slightest hesitation by the hook. He dragged and sawed, and had them standing on their hinds, pawing at the air, just before they left the yard. He kept the pressure on, sawing and holding, as he slowly backed them to the front of the sled, hitched, and drew.

By the time he brought them in for the forth or fifth hitch they were walking, turning evenly, standing to be hitched, and drawing like champs. They didn’t win that day, but Walt sold them, harnesses and all, just as they were, right there in the ring. Two days later they nearly killed the new owner. Same goddamned outlaws, but in his hands they learned to follow his lead, and it wasn’t because he had spent any time on training exercises. I’ll never forget that, it made a huge impression on me.

As far as training other people’s horses, I never drive anyone else’ horses. I have been asked many times to drive them and see how they go, or to try to rectify something, and I decided a long time ago that I would not do it. It won’t do you any good to have me drive your horses, and it won’t do me any good either.

Carl

• This reply was modified 9 years, 5 months ago by Carl Russell.

[Carl Russell]

Hey Donn, I forgot to put quotes around the “train”, because I was trying to point out what I see as a misconception about the transition of training to working.

I was also primarily thinking of it from the example Jared used of “Do not teach a horse unnecessary things such as standing in his stall when the door is open….If a horse turns the head and wants some hay when you are coming in with it, let the horse have a bite” ….

This smacks to me of the training exercise looking for an excuse for purpose. I have a slightly different understanding of training than most, and to some degree I think it translates into some difficulty or limitations for people working animals.

Your latest comments seem to ring to this as well. I never train an animal to “do” anything. Like standing for example. My horses stand whenever I ask them to, not because it is something I trained them to do, but because they understand what I am telling them to do at the time. It is not because I have conditioned them to stand stock still every time I make a certain gesture, but because they read my body language, and they keep checking in with me to make sure we are on the same page.

I have a tendency to let my horses out of the pasture by opening the gate and allowing them to go into the barn on their own, into stalls where food awaits. But, I can also go into the pasture, or anywhere they are, halter them and lead them in handfuls to where they stand and wait for me to unhalter, or tie off, depending. This apparent inconsistency is facilitated not by perpetuating conditioned response, which would be broken down by the inconsistency of the two different approaches, but because they have been “trained” to follow my lead, and they have been “trained” to the communication I used.

I think that the underlying principle behind the comment from the book is that there is a difference between training conditioned response, and training communication. To many people, the training exercise appears to be a list of actions and activities that these animals should be able to accomplish when asked…. and that is fine, I am not trying to dismiss that, it’s just that I see those exercises as integrating components of communication that is often overlooked in favor of the desired response.

I know from having this conversation with many folks, that it can be very hard to refine what I am trying to describe. I see the exercise of getting the horse to stand still, not as my interest to have the horse stand still, but to calibrate the language that I need to use in order for me to get that response. When I see the horse give me the desired response, it shows me not that they are following my command, but that they understand the cues I am giving them. Then I can reuse those cues over and over in many differing situations pertaining to work.

Having a horse stand and wait until released seems to me more of an exercise of dominance than communication, and that is how I interpret the comment from the book. “Don’t wast your time on conditioned response that demonstrates your dominance, but focus of those aspects of your relationship that bolster your communication”….

And I see limitations in working situations where teamsters are almost expecting a horse to do a particular thing because they have given the appropriate command. “push the right button, and this should occur” I see many folks not expanding their communication skills because they tend to look for mechanical responses to specific actions.

I am struggling with how to work through this, because I realize there are more than one way to skin a cat, and there are other schools of thought, but I also find that the conventional wisdom is heavily oriented toward the conditioned response camp. I tried to have this discussion with Doc Hammel, who just looked at me blankly. I tried to tell him that what I see in watching a horse follow his training is a horse watching for cues that they can count on to reinforce their chosen behavior. What he sees is a horse that has become used to the situation, desensitized, and conditioned to respond a certain way.

I have tried to describe that even the oldtimers who tried to force horses into submission were actually, unknowingly, taking advantage of the fact that the horse finally sees the human relax when they do the expected action. Horses are always trying to communicate with us, but there is a human tendency to break up our communication into actionable commands, turning our attention to something else in between. Like sound bites. Steps on a ladder.

I see it as more fluid, perpetual. When I have setbacks, I don’t try to rebuild something, because I don’t see anything being lost. The setback is a clarifier, for me, and for the horses, because I see the communication as being stretched and expanded.

I don’t think that people should give up their training programs, that is not my point. I just want to have a discussion of moving from basic training into working. Some review of the actual outcome of a particular exercise in terms of what that brings to the future working relationship. And potentially some exploration of the difference between conditioned response and the expression of fluid communication in application to varying and complicated situations.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Great recommendation Jared. Sounds like an important text.

Being completely out of context, as I have not read the book, I had similar thoughts to Donn’s.

I have long had a challenge understanding the transition from control exercises to working control. I know that there is clearly some translation from control exercises into working control, but I have focused much more on the foundational communication that is built in exercises than the actual performance.

I have been thinking recently about exploring this in articles or workshops. I think there is a difference between rules that enforce our mastery and rules that clarify our working relationship.

I watch a lot of teamsters grapple with this. How do they translate a command from practice and training into application and an effective working relationship? My theory is that most training is theory, and preparatory. We tend to have a weak link into working communication based on that, and many folks are stuck on either having to go back to the practice ring to reinforce command, or they get stuck trying to reinforce a practice drill during work.

I think it is as Donn suggests that because I am comfortable with allowing freedoms that are acceptable, I can exercise a common understanding. In other words, I know when I am in control, that I am always in control of the choices I make about what they do, and they know it too, I just give them respect for being able to understand that too.

One basic premise that drives my thought process is that I am always at work with my horses. I often say that I have never trained a horse, because I tend to focus on working communication, not training exercises.

Anyway, I’d love to hear what others think, and how we could advance this topic culturally.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Just driving work really. I would continue to find real work that requires only a modicum of effort until she is fully grown, almost four.

I started a young fast growing horse in harness by two. Hitched him beside the mare who was in single shafts and drove them on team lines. He was big and ready by 3, so I hitched him low on the evener, or hooked her back to the load, but drove him spreading manure, and skidding logs.

He was an amazing work horse. Full of heart and cooperative beyond imagination. The early work was significant in the application later in life.

However, by 15 he had a rotated pelvis and developed lameness that I could attribute to some explosive power in slippery conditions, but I was never certain that my early use in semi heavy work had not contributed to a predisposition.

Undoubtedly, the early work is important for application, but be very patient and thoughtful about the progression into weight and exertion. I didn’t disregard the adage about waiting until 3-4, but I was also a little enthusiastic about the growing capability of the horse. Light skidding, cart work, cultivating in the garden, all good projects, but the truth of any work with animals is that at some point you are faced with some mounting effort and exertion….. Just be thoughtful, or prepared to accept the results.

I personally don’t regret the activities that I undertook. I cannot be certain either way. I got 10 good solid years of work from the best horse I’ve had. His lameness was just too soon for the potential he had, and was most likely unrelated to the early-ish start. I’ve moved on….. Just an honest review.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I have been using the clips from Sweden in combo with my D-Ring harness. By clipping into the rear side strap bracket on the D-ring I can attach to the shaft/traces, and keep my leather traces intact on the harness…..

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[Carl Russell]

We also pre wash and massage, and I share Tevis’ appraisal of that.

I will often take my left hand and reach up on the quarter while milking with the right, near the end of let-down, and massage and stroke downward to ensure I have good milk flow.

I have always milked Jerseys and had 5-6% milk….commonally 3-4″ of cream on a gallon jar, without any particular methodology other than described above. I think it is also related to the vigorous approach to the teat. If one just squeezes milk from the teat, I think the result is different than if one quickly releases and presses back up into the quarter to grab another handful. This is possibly a simulation of calf action.

I will say though for cream saving and calf raising, I gave up the practice of letting the mother feed the calf. We divvy out milk from each milking to bottle feed the calves. As much as I value the natural advantage of direct feeding for health and socialization, I also value my own relationship with both mother and calf.

I have found over the years that calves fed on their mothers are not as easy to handle as they mature, and mothers who feed their calves also have an allegiance to the calf over me. In the long run, I find it very little time savings, and have much higher return in well mannered and easy milking animals.

Just to add to the discussion, I prefer to milk diagonally. This is partly because I am usually milking the older cows with large sagging udders. We use a sauce pan for one, as we can no longer fit a milk pail under there. That means I have to lean way over, and reach under to reach the off side, so I milk left rear and front right first. Once pressure is released on the left rear, I can actually reach the right rear quarter. I have never measured any of my methods to know, but I have found regular success, and have often felt that the cross stimulation positively contributed.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

I had to go back and find the article in order to see what you were referring to. I skipped right over it, as I tend to resist technical articles trying to enlighten me to the “correct” way to do anything.

As I suspected, and I know that judging an unread book and all, but, it was a little tone deaf, expressing how amazing the author’s perspective was. I know that was partly because of the times, but milking cows is another craft that has many subtleties.

Par for the times, the article is heavily laden toward the ultimate financial return, so many natural variations and oddities are suggested to be inadequacies. Similarly, the idea that measures should be taken to get the highest return, production, and utilization are emphasized.

I have been milking cows by hand for 30 years. I grew up milking cows and doing barn chores in an 18 cow dairy. One of my early mentors told me, “You can get a lot of life from a cow”…. So calves, grassland management, nutrient cycling, and meat contribute to the farmstead in ways that milking efficiency cannot compensate for.

I have milked cows with crooked tits and sagging uddders for lactation after lactation. I have milked cystic cows that wouldn’t breed back for close to 1000 days, and caught the heat that produced a heifer calf with our original farm bloodlines. I have milked cows into their mid teens. I have milked cows once a day giving 3 gallons, and I have never found myself looking for an extra 15%.

All of this is to say that of course you don’t want to irritate the cow through faulty practices, and you do want to get as much milk as necessary to prevent mastitis, but within that there is a lot of room to move. I have never bunted the udder, not taken the time to squeeze the udders as he describes, but I do hold the teat with a whole hand reaching up into the udder, as well as massaging the sides of the udder to ensure that the milk that is let down is gathered. I also will strip with the thumb and forefinger if need be.

My sense of his description was more to establish standardized procedures that could be adopted by a farm looking to overcome the untrained workforce. Many folks who have milked their own cows for many years will develop a sense of craft, but during the time of that article, the industry was experiencing the growth of the owner/manager farm where labor force was being employed to allow operations to expand. It seemed like a technical undertaking to give direction to the farm manager.

What little increase these specific practices might yield for me is restricted by the fact that we don’t feed to produce milk anyway. A healthy cow produces more than we can market and use, given the other “life” she provides, I can’t see that he sheds any new light on the subject for me.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Jared, I knew who you meant. I don’t take offense at such misunderstandings.

The shafts on the Sv5 measure 68″ from the center of the draft slot to the evener cross bar.

Here is the Instagram link to the photo I was referring to. There are others in the search #horselogging. https://instagram.com/p/tV8c6gJ3cE/

I also attached the screenshot of the post.

Carl

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[Carl Russell]

Hey Jared, it was great to meet you at the field days. I too am excited to develop some more trace/shaft hitching impliments. I have seen a few items in web searches that show wooden shafts made from a sapling split in two. One is a short sled built right on the curved sapling.

I will measure the shafts, but I think you can make them about as long as your rear trace and heel chains. As far as I can see, as long as the horse has free movement to walk, it should matter. You just don’t need twelve feet…..

I can get the clips. These seem to work really well just clipped into the rear side strap attachment on the D-ring. I particularly like that, as I can keep my harness intact. This is the hardware store that Morgan http://store.flobyoverskottslager.se/products/utrustning/verktyg-322869

These clips are simple, but you may be able to use something like John Plowden designed for his carts. He might make you something for less that it would cost to ship those over here….. I will try to get a supply of them to pass along.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Brad, Durgin and Crowell in New London, NH 603-763-2860
They buy long-wood to chip in their power plant…. Don’t know the money, but it ain’t high.

Also VT Wood Pellet in Clarendon…. Also not much money, but it is a market for softwood long wood. (802) 747-1093

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Good luck. Sounds like fun. We may be able to stop on our way to Johnson to watch Tulie in a rugby match.

Here is the link to the UVM searchable photo archive, and some pics. I’m sure the Granite museum has these and plenty more.

Have a blast, Carl

http://www.uvm.edu/landscape/search/

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[Carl Russell]

We will be in the woods on Thursday, and will have it demo’ed on the fairgrounds Friday and Saturday AM

Here are a few pics of how I plan to modify the D-ring to use the Swedish quick hitch equipment.

They should show; D-ring with the rear trace in as normal, the trace bolt and rear side strap attachment with 1 1/2 of the bushings on the trace bolt, then the quick hitch attachment clip between bushings in place of the rear trace and harness intact.

Carl

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[Carl Russell]

Standard equipment is quick hitch shafts for single horse. This wagon is coming as the basic unustomized unit, so no pole.

So far I am reasonably certain that the D-ring harness can be easily modified to accept the hardware designed for the Swedish Military harness.

I will modify a set of my traces today, and post some photos.

This will be one of our first hurdles in merging this equipment into our working community. We cannot expect folks to completely retire their preferred harnessing styles and methods, so we are hoping that great minds will come together at the Field Days to help brainstorm ways to make the use of this equipment a reasonable transition.

Carl

• This reply was modified 9 years, 7 months ago by Carl Russell.

[Carl Russell]

It is important to note that the wagon is versatile, and can be customized to suit many purposes other than just forestry.

I just got off the phone with Morgan. The truck just arrived to transport the crates Stateside…. Should have it here within 5-7 days.

Carl.

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