[Carl Russell]

I just acquired this JD #3. I had to do a bit of tuning and tinkering, but it ran pretty well, and I was able to catch a nice little crop of late season rowen.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

So Danial, I have thought long and hard about this, and about my reply. George (Doe’s Leap) has recently written to me to share some of what I have been up to working with my new geldings, and while I am not going to put this here in your post, the thoughts that I have pertaining to that enterprise have some association with what you have gone through.

First of all, I am glad that you are sound after such an ordeal.

I also want to say that I am not one hundred percent sure what point you were trying to make, but it seems that most of it was focused on how fast horses can react, and how vigilant we need to be when handling them.

And to that point I would say that no matter how stoved in I was, I would never have let those two men anywhere near those, or the other horses that day. I am not blaming them for the accident, but clearly at least one minimally contributed. The point is not to blame them, but to continue with your self-appointed task.

That for me is where the focus and vigilance builds from. I go get those horses, walk them back to the barn, one at a time if necessary, and start over, also maybe one at a time this time.

I know that they only thought they were helping out, but it seems clear that they also did not see the importance of this as a training moment. The disconnect that was allowed to occur at the choice of the horses, was not acceptable, and needed to be addressed (if only for you to reconnect to take of halters and leads). I do not mean that there was any malice, just that there was some level of confusion, and some reason for which they thought that they would reject your leadership.

The way the situation was resolved did not address that.

It is not a bridge that cannot be crossed again. And I do not mean to insinuate that this was a major failure. I just feel that my comments need to be focused on encouraging you to assert your prominence in situations like this. If not for the farm or for the horses, then for you as a developing teamster.

Sure you should accept the caring assistance of your workmates, but the truth is that we cannot share our prominence as leaders to the animals we work with. It is based on personal ownership of our actions and activities, and in this modern world we are trained to be more humble than that. Unfortunately, accommodating and humble are essential attributes, but they require extra time, experience and skill to use appropriately.

To be effective they need to be offset by some elbow. As subordinate participants in cultural life we are trained not to fill our complete essence. We are trained to apologize, and to accommodate, to withhold our utmost expressions of individuality, and independence.

Working with horses has been huge for me to understand this, and to fill out as the person I am supposed to be. As I have explained many time before, for me it all, always comes down to pressure and release. The pressure that I carry with me all the time is the way I carry myself. I am full, and present, and that is a constant that I never compromise on. Horses can read that.

Working with the new geldings I have seen this in play while working alongside some novices. Many people rely on technique, method, and conditioned responce to make sure horses are going along with the intended task, and of course they will, to a degree, but they can clearly read how secure that leadership is.

Accommodation and cooperation are the release, the reward, but they are largely ineffective if they are used to attract reciprocation. Horses are simple, and while they want to be comfortable and trusting, they also will not be attracted to us if we do not somehow define for them who we are. We need to carve out our form in the environment of the farm and working system that they are a part of.

In this instance I will not rehash any of the specifics, or search for blame, just reiterate that for me the discipline that leads to owning one’s self in the leadership role starts with not relinquishing that role. That means not allowing your caring friends to take over that role, not allowing the horses to bypass your leadership without some reinforcement.

I hope these comments first of all make sense, and more importantly, I hope they are appropriate. I have seen you around horses, and kept up with you to some degree through the network. You have innate skill, and drive. I only intend to encourage you toward fulfilling that for yourself.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

After 27 years of working horses and following strict routines around hitching and command structure, I found myself one day reaching for lines as my horses were fidgeting on a heavy load, raring to go, not wanting to take advantage of a rest…..

The strange thing was my right leg had a sudden and excruciating pain…. I had broken one of the basic rules that I have had firmly in the front of my mind from day one, to not step between evener and the sled. Luckily that is all I broke.

I can list all of things I could have done differently. I can find reasons why it happened. I can also think of all the things that were as they normally are.

I’m glad you were not hurt, and that you had a great day, but safety is a function of the degree of risk we are willing to take. Working horses is highly risky business, and 90% of the time a carabiner hook is not a problem, but when it is all you have left is your whits.

Thanks for sharing this, because I don’t think enough people realize that experience and attention to detail do not prevent accidents 100% of the time.

It will always come down to how we come out the other side.

Glad you made it, Carl

[Carl Russell]

Hi All, I have finally gotten the mechanical drawings and plans for the Barden Cart. I will be scanning the document and can make it available as a PDF. I can also make it available in hard-copy.

I would like to see these plans generate some income, not only to defray copying and postage, but as a possible source of fund-raising for DAPNet.

I have contacted Donn Hewes about how that might be made to happen, but we have not worked out the details yet.

Please have some patience as I would prefer to have everything in place to keep things efficient and effective before trying to address individual interest. If it turns out that it is not doable through the digital platforms that DAPNet uses, then we will revert to simpler methods…..

Carl

[Carl Russell]

It certainly is an interesting concept. As far as your plows though, I wonder if it has more to do with the previous users. Did they wear out the right hand sides?

Anyway, I do find myself innately choosing to circle left more often, and will become aware of it in the midst of harrowing, or some other repetitive turning. In the woods even, I will often choose to set up my turns in the same direction time and time again. It has been that way for years over many horses.

Must be like water going down the toilet, energy swirling in the cortex of my brain in a certain direction.

When the kids were very young, as part of our non-school homeschooling, we did some Brain Games, that used reversing rotation, and limb and body cross-overs as way to enliven the brain. By changing perception from side to side, mentally and physically, we activate many areas of our brains that we habitually close down due to developed comfort.

Are you really dissatisfied with the right hand furrow, or are you just feeling stimulation from reversing the turn? Maybe it is a worthy exercise for you to open your perception to action in that direction…….

[Carl Russell]

George, the new horses have been staying at a nearby farm, so I have not had a lot of time to work with them. The folks live thee have been caring for hem, handling them, and keeping them engaged.

I have been very impressed by the horses. They are big, but generally have pretty good manners. However, some boundaries are a bit foggy…. I have been stepped on more times in the last month than I have been in 10 years.

My first work with them was altering. In the box stalls, getting them to either present their head to me, or to let me approach to put the halter on. One of them, I cal Tom, is like a rubberband. I move forward, he moves away, I pull back, he swings my way. We did that about five times, and he realized we were on the same wavelength, and as he would swing toward me, I would modify my approach to get him to trust that he didn’t have to move away. I may have left him alone for a while, but basically we got the halters get thing worked out in about 15 minutes.

The other, Mike, has some issues around his head. He also tends to be very responsive, and trusting, but even as he gives me his head, he has a tendency to wiggle and fidget as the halter is put on. I have been wanting to look at his teeth ever since I got him, which he is not excited about. Yesterday, after brushing him, which he loves, and will stand for anywhere, as long as the other one isn’t there to push me away, I decided to see how far we could get with the mouth. He just doesn’t trust me to hold his lips open while holding his head for me, so I had one hand on the halter and started fooling with his lips with the other. Finally I grabbed his upper lip, and just held on while he tossed his head. In that exercise, there would be instances when he would pause or partially relax, and I would correspondingly relax my grip, until after about a minute or two, he let me pull his lips back. I have to keep one hand holding his upper lip, but I could use the other to pull back the lower.mi could hold his tongue yet, but I got a cursory glimpse of what is going on in there.

I have handled all of their feet, clipped and rasped, and they have held them on my knee for me. I have taken them for lead rope walks, two at a time. They can demonstrate some distracted behavior,Mears and heads up, almost alarmed, which seems to go along with the soft boundary issue, that may be residual from being neglected, just not getting continuity from a human leader, because they clearly are willing to take my guidance once they determine that I am not phased by their expression. Mike has a tendency to wheel and shy from compost buckets, round bales with tarps on them, and the usual tigers in the grass, but easily focuses on me again when I apparently do not share his concern.

I have purposefully not tried to learn the specifics of the past, but is seems clear to me that they had some good imprinting as younger horses. They yield easily when asked to step over, with just the slightest touch. They are very large horses, and will politely navigate the narrow walkways in the barn where they stay while on lead. They are pretty seriously hers bound to each other. Leading to their most distracted behavior, and since I don’t have the time available on a regular basis, I have not pushed that too far yet.

I’ve had harness on them, but nothing more than adjusting, and getting them used to my approach.

Generally, my approach with any horse is to just use normal interaction to asses those points where the animal is resistant, or distracting of my interaction, then focus on exercises that reduce the discrepancy between what I want, and how they responde. Working around their feet with a apple picker in the stall, one kind of batted at it, so we spent a few minutes refining that interaction. I am not concerned about the tool, or the horse learning about the tool, just about clarifying ,yacht ions so that the horse sees me reaching toward him, and that I am reading his response, so that I modify my approach to match his comfort level, without letting go of my intention. When the horse can clearly see that I am cognizant of that form of communication, they quickly start to look to me for more of that kind of interaction.

This is what I work on. Building communication over and over again in every facet of our interactions. As I have mentioned, not specific to the details of that interaction, but in general to the bigger context of physical communication. If they have some reason to be distrustful because of their history, it clearly matters to them, as experience has taught them to act a certain way. However, I have found that they are even more keenly aware of how I present myself, and when I actually stop in the midst of what I am doing, and give them the respect, and show them that I know they can understand me, I have found that most of these behaviors can be worked through.

Anyway, I feel like I have my hands on a pair of very valuable horses. They are large and in good health, comfortable, and responsive. Now I know that I have harnesses that will fit, so I expect we will be doing some driving soon enough.

More later.

[Carl Russell]

I agree with everything said above.

From the aspect of forestry, environmental sciences, or surveying, I think it does not matter which you choose, 2 or 4. The difference is that 2 year schools are usually geared more toward technical aspects of the work, and are generally not geared toward professional level certification.

I cannot speak directly to the 2 year programs, as I went 4 years for forestry, but I do believe that many 2 year programs are excellent. You are usually on a faster track to get the baseline skills to get out in the field to do the work. And like Will said, that can get you on the ground so you can decide if it is for you.

However, for forestry and surveying in particular, there are generally requirements for professional certification that are only met with 4 years of college. Having those skills and the ability to operate at the higher pay scale, for lack of a better way of putting it, could be worthwhile, but that could be a good reason to go back to school if you decide it is what you want.

Personally I would not be where I am today without my degree, but most the way I piece together my living has little to do with the professional level of training that I received.That being said, my degree also has always provided me with a validity that I would not have without it.

I think the main thing is that you find a school program that will keep you engaged, inspired, and motivated. I am going through the same thing with our daughter. She has been mulling over all kinds of career choices, as if she can project herself forward 6 years and know what she really will want to do. I think it is less important to know what you will want to do, than it is to enjoy what you are doing.

Make college be a growth experience for you. Find something that will make you want to get up in the morning, and stay up late at night digging deep into the recesses of what you learned that day. That is what college should be about. Then when you are done, go out and get a job. If the two things line up great.

Of course I have to apologize because I went to an in-state school 35 years ago, with Veterans education benefits, and work-study, and basically got paid to go to college. I know that is not a fair comparison, and I agree with Donn, I would not recommend that you just go to college for the sake of it, with the potential debt.

If you would like to shadow me sometime while I am cruising a woodlot, or marking timber, or supervising a timber sale, you are more than welcome to get a little taste of how a forestry degree plays into my life.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Any straight bit is what I would suggest. I switched from 6″ straight bar bit to a Liverpool a few years ago because I had horses that each required different bit pressure. I found that having the ability to set each horse to a different setting made a huge improvement.

I stopped using jointed bits years ago, because they pinch and can cause distraction… or at least that is what I found.

When I started, I had the impression from other teamsters that I had to “control” my horses, so I was looking for leverage, or pressure-makers like the jointed bits provide. Somewhere along there I was talking it over with one of my mentors, and they suggested a rubber bit for my old “hard-mouthed” mare…. A different horse than mentioned above…..

I was so completely amazed when I put that rubber bit in her mouth. She was so responsive…. she was always still a very forward horse, but from that point on our working relationship improved continuously. Finding the bit that provides the most subtlety helped me to convey to her a more consistent and clear guidance, because she could feel me changing pressure, where before the pain covered everything.

Eventually I shifted to a straight 6″ bit, which was a little better as the rubber bit had a little too much give, and I found that I wanted more clarity. I am still using the Liverpool as I tend to find that the way I mix and match horses, they often need a slightly different setting.

Good luck, Carl

[Carl Russell]

I don’t disagree with any of these thoughts. For me however, knowing that blinders handicap the horse, gives me with my philosophy on working communication with horses a way to replace for them something I have taken away… deepening the interchange.

I am not saying you aren’t doing the same thing, just that I am purposefully aware of the handicap, as you are of the improved awareness. Both components compliment our personal styles.

I will however make one comment about the horse turning around. I have very forward horses that will do the exact same thing when I first try to demonstrate driving contact to novices. I believe it has less to do with them wanting to know what is behind them, or wanting to join up, and more to do with not being clear on what is being expected, loose guidance, and inconsistent contact.

It clearly is an interesting consideration. If they can see you, do they have better ability to determine what you want? that is probably true.

I personally only want them to be responding directly to my guidance, not trying to determine all the moving pieces. That way I have instantaneous and perpetual interaction with them. They wait for me to give them clear messages, and I constantly need to be attuned to that, but it also gives me an almost intuitive connection, thinking what I want and envisioning the movement as it happens.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Donn, I knew what you meant. I was speaking mostly in reference to the article. I didn’t mean to look defensive…..

[Carl Russell]

Donn, I also read that piece by Bekah and Neal, and as always, found it interesting.

My take on blinders is a bit different. My comments are not meant to disparage any other interpretation, or to advocate one way or the other.

I have been accustoming a new pair of horses to my handling, and was covering some of my approach with my daughter, who has been studying with me, and the folks who are boarding them for me. I have been testing their responsiveness and trust through a series of pressure and release exercises.

As I was working on handling their feet, questions came up about doing foot-work myself versus hiring a farrier. My answer is that handling their feet builds fundamental communication and trust, so I will not give that over to someone else. Horses’ power is in their ability to run, so having them willingly give me their feet is a very big conduit to building trust.

The same thing can be attributed to blinders. Particularly with the sight capabilities of equine, putting blinders on them prevents them from having sight to nearly half of their curiosity zone. This makes them much more dependent on us for directing them. Of course animals that have not become trusting, or those given inconsistent direction, can be made even more uncomfortable, but the sensitive teamster can use this mechanism to reinforce their trustworthiness as guide.

Another component of this for me is that blinders actually interrupt the visual dependency that animals have, just like humans. Think about how innately we try to turn our heads to see what is behind us. Think about taking direction from someone behind you entirely through voice and point contact such as a bit. This level of dependency can really enhance the level of trust that the animal can develop for the teamster.

I recently had an experience with an intern who was trying to straighten out my horses by applying pressure to align them with a line of travel, then relaxing, only to find that they would again veer off that line. I do not look to my horses to make up even the simplest direction such as walking straight. My contact is constant, and I take full responsibility for a perpetual direction, so I cannot say that I have ever tried to use blinders for straightness.

Also by interrupting the sight, the animal must rely more heavily on other senses such as hearing and feel, which augments the lines of communication used by the teamster. This enhanced sensitivity is for me the greatest aspect of directing horses in work. As I am sensitive to the handicap that I create through blocking sight, I take more responsibility for compensating for the animal, both assisting and directing, building a dynamic momentary communication.

I am not saying that this cannot be done without blinders, but I offer that, from my experience, it is the most significant reason why blinders are a traditional component of the working relationship with horses.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

We are working on it Michel

[Carl Russell]

You’re right Mitch, that is a pyramid scheme, but it isn’t “capitalism”. It is an Americanized bastardization of a sound concept, with broader common goals of asset growth. It’s a shell game, called capitalism, but it really is just greed.

Sorry Dylan, buy some ponies……you can’t go wrong.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

Mitch, that is no joke. The sad fact is that the dirty secret of the modern mechanical economy is that most people do not account for depreciation in their operating costs.

Tax codes allow us to right off depreciation value, but on the ground operations generally price themselves competitively based almost exclusively on operational expenses, tires, fuel, hoses, repairs.

Credit is another component of this, allowing operators to run machinery into the ground that they never even owned, ending up with no actual capital. They pay in equity on the loan, but that only represents the cost of the machine, not actual value, or capital that is accrued over the life of the machine.

Capitalism is supposed to be the activity of using investment to gain over time through the activity related to the investment. Buying a machine, one would not only pay for the cost of owning it, and the income necessary to live, but would end up not only with a piece of equipment that had an effective life, but the value of the replacement at some point.

Because these are not hard and fast rules, and we all have free will, there is nothing to say that operators have to account for their businesses that way. Therefore, those costs that are required to run the machine over a period of time are all that are necessary to account for. To be competitive they all keep driving each other’s costs downward.

Credit allows them to roll over their equity into a new purchase agreement, and they can continue to make money for the manufacturer, banker, and fuel dealer. Then everyone wonders why average citizens have no capital, and paper handlers have all the cash.

Even operators that get into machinery without credit take advantage of the operational ability, and only account for those necessary costs. If you are competing with folks that are running their machines into the ground, you have little choice but to follow.

Of course we all know folks who have made a name for themselves, and with high quality work and good financial discipline have managed to break that cycle, but in the logging industry those guys are few and far between.

Using horses is a not only a low capital endeavor, but there actually is appreciation of value. While we are making much less income, we are also by the nature of our work defraying some of our potential to devalue our equipment in competitive pricing in the maintenance and enhancement of our working partnership.

On the one hand that puts us at a competitive disadvantage versus machines. Not just on a production basis, but on a dollar for dollar comparison. We just cannot bleed our investment out in the name of competition.

On the other hand, over the long haul it gives us more capital, real capital, that can be reinvested, and re-capitalized throughout many different enterprises.

Just been mulling these things over and needed to download.

Carl

[Carl Russell]

There is a recent thread about this also.

I use my crawler now when the snow gets really deep, but for years I usually would just keep the trails open that I wanted to use, by traveling them throughout the winter. I had a few disasterous winters when the deep snow just got so deep that I had to give up on some commercial jobs. Working at home tends to be less complicated.

As I mentioned before, I just made do without the machinery. It’s just one of those trade offs. I would still be doing it that way, or just giving up some areas when snow gets too deep, if I could not have found a cheap way into this current crawler. I sure would not buy a tractor for that purpose.

In the woods I have found ways to fell trees into, or away from, the work area, and use the skidding of them to pack down and open new areas during harvesting. I still need to use these techniques as I do not go stump to stump with the crawler.

As handy as a tractor is, I am much more inclined toward the crawler for road building, erosion control, and pushing, such as turning manure piles. I have still only skidded one log with the thing in three years. I am a firm believer in finding mechanized equipment that actually augments the use of animals rather than equipment that can do the same work.

I try to stay away from expenses that drive me toward using the equipment in place of the horses. I found that the market for used crawlers to be much softer for a usable piece than that of used tractors. Just my own honest appraisal.

Carl

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