[Does’ Leap]

Hi Carl J:

Regarding the biter, I am careful having others work around him. We had someone visiting our farm last winter and he reached over his stall, bit through her jacket and broke the skin. That said, he is boarded for a couple of months during the winter so my wife and daughter car ride in an indoor arena. The staff gets along with him fine there.

I concur with Carl about having other folks drive this horse. I had an experienced driver drive my horses once and they ran away with him. It was deep snow thankfully and he was eventually able to stop them. Oddly enough (we were very green at the time), I could see it unfold before it happened as we were both in the forecart together. I didn’t say anything b/c I had little experience at the time, but even at that point in my budding horse career I knew the horses well enough to know what he was doing wasn’t right. Long story short, no one drives my horses except my wife and I.

One last thing regarding the round pen. I have never used a “real” round pen made of wood. I have always used a temporary poly wire set-up. I have worked with half a dozen horses this way. As long as the horse is fence trained and you don’t put too much pressure on them, you should be fine. I encourage you to try it if you move forward with this horse.

George

[Does’ Leap]

I have a few more thoughts on this, which may help with some insight, but I don’t know how much practically. We also have a horse we bought as an 8 year old, we took him from his mother for the first time and he had not had a lot of work prior to that. He also had a bit of an aggressive nature which maybe had served him well in avoiding work or interactions that made him nervous, I don’t know. I do feel that aggressive behavior is not because they are mean, but because they are insecure, and our new horse had a great deal to be insecure about, having moved, meeting new horses for the first time and starting training. And some horses handle things they are afraid of in different ways, most try to get away from the situation and others try to battle it. I remember doing a repair to the horses waterer with the electric drill. My original 3 horses are a little wary of the drill so decided to leave the shed. The new horse was wary of the drill so charged me with teeth bared!

I’m very grateful he was not a kicker because that is just so dangerous it would have been difficult to proceed, so I feel for you. Our guy was a front end aggressor, he could charge and take you down and I lost some skin to his teeth a few times, no fun and worthy of caution, but it seemed unlikely I would end up with a life changing injury if I was careful.

The path to a pleasant demeanor with him was giving him is confidence and gaining trust. This started in the paddock with him and most importantly about food. I never pushed him away from his food or made him wait when he exhibited bad behavior. I tried to make it a non issue, I deliver the food, he always gets it and it is no big deal. I ignored his snapping and threats(meaning I did not punish them but I did not back away readily either, if anything I’d give and extra pet), the key is you have to do it safely, but the message needed to be that there is no reason for defensiveness about the food. For me, this slowly progressed to being able to walk up to him in the paddock while he was eating his hay and give him a scratch or an apple and walk away, ignoring his half charges when I turned my back. It is a really tricky business, because it is bad behavior that is dangerous and shouldn’t be tolerated, but punishing the behavior, in my horse’s mind, sort of justified it.

We have had this guy for 3 years now and things are worlds better and I feel quite safe with him. It is still a work in progress and I know he scowls at me sometimes when I turn my back, but he has so much more trust in me and he is now willing to face new things without slipping into attack mode.

It seems like there are a lot of good things with this team in that they drive well together and you are figuring out how to handle her safely. If you decide to move forward with them you will have to watch your back for a very long time, but you may be able to develop a system in which you can and still make things work.

Now that 3 years has past I am glad I put in the work with this horse to make things right, but I can tell you at year 1 and 2 it was quite discouraging to feel like I was doing a good job but still dealing with the same old shit.

Good luck with your decision. Again, I am very grateful hooves weren’t flying at me, it would have made things much more difficult.

Kristan

[Does’ Leap]

Hi Carl:

Sorry to hear about your troubles with your horse. There are many on this forum with more experience than me but I will put in my 2 cents because I had an experience very similar to yours. We bought our current team of bay geldings 6 years ago. They were 5 at the time and very well broke when we went to drive them with experience on a lot of different farm equipment. The fellow who sold them to us reaffirmed that they were well trained but still just “colts” and to be careful.

For the first few weeks this team was great for us, but slowly things started to break down due to our lack of experience. Pretty soon they were no longer the “dead broke” team that we purchased but a few rogues occasionally taking our suggestions, but mostly not.

On a recommendation from an experienced teamster we purchased Clinton Anderson’s Round Pen DVD set and got started doing some round pen work. Here’s a link:

The first more submissive/fearful gelding went like a champ in the round pen. We thought we were pros. When we put his brother in pen he wanted nothing to do with moving on our command and proceeded to drive me out of the round pen. Charging and kicking he was moving me instead of vice versa. Very humiliating! We stuck with it for weeks and finally were able to exert our leadership – dare I say dominance? – over this horse. I learned so much from those experiences in the round pen. For me, it was a safe environment where I could engage my horses and learn to read them (and vice versa). It was a venue in which we learned to start communicating with each other however crude and facile. Pressure, release, approach, and retreat – I was learning the first moves to the intricate dance of equine communication. I was able to develop a modicum of confidence that I could then apply to working situations.

Looking back I feel like Clinton Anderson’s approach is a bit rigid, sequential and lacks subtlety, but at the time it is what I needed having little experience with horses and no mentors to guide me. This round pen work coupled with changing to leverage bits were some key tools in getting us started on the right track with these “colts”. Note the term “tools”. It’s hard to build a house without hammers and saws but those tools don’t make you a carpenter. The rest was just hard work. Fortunately my wife and I make our full-time living off the farm and there has always been plenty of work to do with these horses.

6 to 7 years in, we have a great team and I am constantly learning and trying to refine my craft. Incidentally, the uber-dominant horse who tried to kill me in the round pen has turned out to be a fantastic partner. He has unflagging determination and is super-responsive both in and out of harness. He can still be a bit of a handful at times, but I have come to appreciate that spirit and use it to my advantage.

I have been following the “Command vs. Communication” thread with interest as I tend to be a bit of a dominator. This is partially due to the aforementioned experiences and partly due to my personality. I have a fairly rigid set of expectations in out of harness and I enforce them consistently without fail. The results have been very good, but my current work resides in developing a more subtle approach. I currently see myself as a benevolent dictator and need to become more of an empathetic leader.

I encourage you to stick with this horse. As mentioned before, I think a lot in terms of pressure/release when I work with my horses. I try to exert as little pressure as possible to get the desired result. Once that desired result is accomplished I try to provide immediate release. I believe that clear communication is based on (1) the amount and speed with which you apply pressure; and (2) the ability to immediately release upon achieving your goal. In my head I envision a “pressure gauge” that may go from 1 to 100. Ideally you start low and increase accordingly and this can happen in a matter of seconds. Depending on the behavior, I might start at 50. In the case of this mare biting and kicking, a response in the 110 range would be appropriate.

No mentor can do the work for you. It is you and your horses working it out together, coming to an understanding where you all can feel safe accomplishing meaningful work. It is this shared endeavor that makes this work so meaningful and fulfilling.

Good luck and be safe.

George

[Does’ Leap]

I suggest “googling” it. You will come up with plenty of good information with pictures. Here are a couple resources:

https://www.uaex.edu/publications/PDF/FSA-3123.pdf
http://extension.missouri.edu/p/G2842

George

• This reply was modified 9 years, 6 months ago by Does' Leap.

[Does’ Leap]

I am curious about your experience mowing with that single horse mower. I have an MD single horse mower and have not had a chance to renovate it. I currently mow with a team but have a third horse that could work with on that single mower.

George

[Does’ Leap]

Hi Will:

I think you pretty much tagged it – match your neck yoke to your evener and you are good to go. In terms of the evener size, one of the trade-offs is the width of your hitch vs. how much space you have between your horses. I run 40″ eveners. I like some space between my horses for summer work as I think it makes a difference in keeping them cool.

Single tree width is not critical. How broad are your horses? You want to make your single trees wide enough so the the traces are not rubbing against their legs. I would guess mine are 26 inches give or take.

Good luck.

George

[Does’ Leap]

One concern I have is that as you move your cross-check forward to accomodate the wider set-up, you are more likely to have them go through the hame rings. Donn’s suggestion of making the cross-checks longer is a good one and would certainly help. I would also set something up so that this could not happen.

The other thing I might do is put a few eye bolts in a 60 inch 2×4 and clip that into the front side straps (provided you are not using a neck yoke). This would help keep the team from spreading or turning inside-out.

George

[Does’ Leap]

Very nice! Great examples of multiple configurations of horses in a variety of environments using different tools. The European use of a “jerk line” (I think it is called?) is interesting. Lots of voice commands I imagine. I particularly liked the pushing of logs into the pile by splitting the horses.

Thanks for posting this.

George

[Does’ Leap]

Hi Mitch:

I have been there many times with my own mowers and helping a friend rebuild his. Getting the lead and register correct can be very frustrating. The interplay between the two adjustment mechanisms can be confounding. I never have shortened the pitman though opting to assemble re-assemble until I got things correct. I am interested to hear how it turns out for you.

Happy mowing.

George

[Does’ Leap]

We put up 750 over the last few days to finish up our first cut. We did get some rain Saturday night, but not too bad. We dodged a big bullet as the rain was torrential just south of us.

Yesterday was hot and humid (the first such day all summer!) and horses were digging deep to finish raking. Hay quality is decent considering the challenges.

George

[Does’ Leap]

The hay we cut Tuesday/Wednesday was rained on Wednesday night. Five teddings later we were able to bale 150 on Friday afternoon. I thought we would be baling Saturday but, although relatively cool, the drying conditions were ideal – low humidity, sunny and breezy.

Fingers are crossed for some decent weather to come….

George

[Does’ Leap]

Hi Daniel:

I have two #9 mowers – one 6 footer with a “E Z Cut System” and a 5 footer with new haybine knives and guards. Both are on steel wheels. I was using the 6 foot mower on Tuesday.

I think the rubber gasket might get you by in a pinch, but I would go ahead and replace the seals. It is not a bad job. I put two seals instead of one for good measure.

George

[Does’ Leap]

I mowed 3.5 acres yesterday afternoon while it showered. This is the first time we mowed this year and it is our latest start in 6 years of making hay. It was one of the most challenging mowing experiences I have had – thick, partially lodged hay on wet ground. The field is generally a dry one, but in one wet section the wheels on my MD #9 would lose traction in the mud and the knives would bind tight while the mower would spin off to the left. Mowing the leeward direction proved fruitless in the lodged hay as I would just roll right over it and I finally decide to only mow in the windward direction – one pass mowing, raise the cutter bar, and back to the beginning, over and over.

We were hoping to mow another 5 acres today, but the weather forecast is not cooperating. Whoever said making hay with horses would be easy right?

Happy haying…

George

[Does’ Leap]

Nice to hear about your new farm and see some pictures. Thanks for sharing and good luck with the growing season. We are at full throttle here in northern Vermont with our farm. The weather changed quickly and grass is growing. Finally got some rain after a prolonged dry spell.

Cheers.

George

[Does’ Leap]

“I have a 2″ box aluminum pole I am using”

Jay, how do you like the pole? What is the wall thickness on your box aluminum and does it seem rugged? Originally I thought you were considering 3″.

Thanks.

George

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