[Does’ Leap]

Hi Jared:

That is a pretty slick harrow – never seen one before. Have you priced one out through Gibbs Manufacturing? Although it is a relatively simple tool, I don’t think it would be simple to manufacture. If you did buy one, you would need to have a three point hitch mounted to your forecart. I think White Horse or Pioneer makes one that you raise and lower with a hand lever.

George

[Does’ Leap]

“Wow George, that is some breakdown….. how does that figure in estimated dollars per day, or dollars per hour for your woods work?

I would be really interested to find out if that guy would do that again at that price. Most guys I know operating processors are looking for more like $100/cd processing and delivering.”

Hi Carl:

In terms of dollars per day, I figure I pull an average of 1.5 chords/day. As you know, it depends on the length of the skid, accessibility to the trees I am cutting, snow/ice conditions etc. At 1.5 chords, that would bring me to $222/day for gross income. I haven’t really done an enterprise budget for my horses as their use is spread across our farming operation. To arrive on daily dollars/day I would need to take off feed, teeth floating, trimming supplies, vet, barn and equipment depreciation, etc, etc. You ever crunched the number on your horses? Irregardless, it is a good return on my labor considering the improvement to my woodlot and the pleasure I get from working my woods.

In terms of him doing it again at that price, I expect so (provided the price of fuel remains the same). He only lives 6 miles from me and he said that he could only do it in April when he is locked out of the woods. If there were a critical mass of horse loggers in one area, a joint investment into a processor and/or a mill might be worth considering.

How is your new(ish) mare doing?

George

[Does’ Leap]

Hi Jared:

You might also consider selling firewood. I cut 23 cords last winter and hired a wood processor to block and split log length wood. He loaded the processor with a boom on a log truck, conveyored the wood into a dump truck, and dumped 3 cord loads wherever I wanted them. He charged me $52/cord ($50/cord plus some for trucking). When I consider my labor, fuel, and equipment depreciation, I cannot touch this price doing it myself.

I advertised 3 cords (pick-up only) in Craiglist for $600 and sold it within a few hours. Not bad for non-seasoned wood. Essentially I was paid $148/cord on the landing (i.e. no trucking) and never had to touch the wood. If you figure 2 cords = 1 mbf (can someone confirm this figure?), I was getting paid $296/mbf after trucking. This is considerably higher than what I average for hemlock logs after trucking (about $260/mbf) and is more than double the price of log length firewood on the landing ($70/cord). I think the price of log length has gone up considerably since then however.

The added bonus is that this is all low grade wood and I have a lot of it. A somewhat profitable firewood enterprise also fits nicely into the the model of horse loggers as silviculturists.

Good luck.

George

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I believe that leading animals is not just about getting them from “A” to “B”. For me it is yet another opportunity to tune in to my horses (and vice versa), refine my communication, and re-establish expectations. It is fun and rewarding to be able to give them subtle cues and have them respond. We lead 4 daily and often ride one and “pony” the rest. I like the horses’ attention to be focused on me at all times. If I see them drifting mentally I call their name to bring their attention back to me.

I agree with Carl R that practicing in the barnyard is a good idea. When you lead only one horse can you lead with an absolutely slack line? Can you jog and then go to a snail’s pace, again with a slack line? Will s/he “get over”, Gee, Haw, and back with minimal pressure? Will they put their head down on command?

Ideally you have all three horses being able to do the above. Really it is not about passing tests, but having your horses tuned in to you and understanding your rules. Your job is to enforce and reward through pressure and release.

My preferred training tool is a long twitch or driving whip. First I “desensitize” my horse the whip. It is not something to fear, simply an extension of my arm. When leading one horse, I hold the twitch in my left and lead with the right. A swish in front (and sometimes a bonk on the nose) is a reminder to slow down. If I want him to speed up, I reach behind my back and pat them on the rear. Soon enough you can dispense with the whip. If you have horses stepping ahead, use your lead rope as a warning.

Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.

George

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Hey Carl:

Thanks for posting those pictures. I have used several of those configurations, but rarely have enough chain for configuration “H”. I use 9′ chains which seems the ideal balance (for me) between big enough to get the job done without having to haul extra chain. What is your prefered length for a skid chain?

Most of my ground skidding happens from a bobsled, scoot, or arch where I always have an extra chain (or two). If I need an extra chain for a particular hitch, I will grab it from the implement and return it when done so as not to have to carry it around.

George

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Hi Tim:

Glad the peavey is working out for you. Overall it has worked great for me with lots of grab with a variety of different logs. My only complaint is that the hook tends to bend when using the point of the peavey to move logs. I plan to weld on some 1/4 flat bar to reinforce before heading to the woods this fall.

Happy logging…

George

[Does’ Leap]

Hi Donn:

I have often thought about the advantage of rigging a cradle hitch while ground skidding and have never gotten around to figuring out a system. Although you don’t get quite the same advantage employing a cradle hitch behind a logging cart, I do think it would be advantageous with larger logs in order to avoid the “plowing” effect (like in the photo below).

I also will employ 2 chains on occasion and think the second slot useful in that situation as well. I will sometimes back the horses perpendicular to the junction of two logs from a recently bucked tree and pull both at the same time.

Keep up the good work and thanks for the update!

George

[Does’ Leap]

Hi Mark:

I think I have the same set-up – http://www.amazon.com/Hobart-500549-Auto-Wire-Welder/dp/B002VECKTC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1408046205&sr=8-1&keywords=hobart+autoarc

This is a great unit for welding thin steel and very versatile when coupled with a 50′ 10 AWG extension cord. However I would argue that it lacks the amperage for most of the construction, repair, and maintenance that I do. If you bevel edges and do multiple passes, you can get by doing 1/4″ steel, but that would be the upper limit for this machine. Even with 1/4″, I will generally turn to my stick welder which has much better penetration than this unit.

Brad, I have an older welder, but this is the size/amperage I would go for: http://www.amazon.com/Lincoln-Electric-K1170-AC225S-Welder/dp/B0000CBIKA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1408046274&sr=8-1&keywords=stick+welder+220v

Having AC/DC would be nice, but not totally necessary in my opinion. There are often some good deals on Craigslist that you might check out as well. I would also argue that if you are used to MIG welding, those skills are transferable to stick with a little practice.

George

• This reply was modified 10 years, 8 months ago by Does' Leap.
• This reply was modified 10 years, 8 months ago by Does' Leap.

[Does’ Leap]

Hi Brad:

Why not get an arc welder instead? Dollar for dollar, you will get a much better buy for your money. Unless you are doing serious production welding, there is no reason not go with stick. Also, no MIG wire that I know of comes close to 6011 rod when working on old machinery. I own and have used both – go with a stick!

George

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Hey Donn:

As always, I appreciate the knowledge and experience you bring to these exchanges. I agree that safely managing horses comes down how we manage and respond to difficult situations. Confident, adept responses over a period of time create confidence in both teamster and horses alike that helps us all stay safe. It takes a lot of time behind the lines to develop this confidence and it is a never-ending journey. I applaud your work in teaching new teamsters.

I still would like to believe that a butt rope, especially with a set-up like Mark’s, might play a role in averting a wreck. In Kristan’s situation, the cutter bar got jammed immediately and I would have been difficult to step the horses forward (to prevent the inside-out situation) while one was attached to the mower and the other not. Luckily, the horses felt comfortable and confident enough to stop and wait rather than running. I also do not think a butt rope precludes training your horses to stay together and step over the pole smoothly as many have mentioned.

George

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I regularly use a butt rope. I started with one that went from hame to hame per Doc’s recommendation but eventually started using one that connects via the inside britchen rings for convenience. The butt rope broke during this incident however, so I did not do much to help me. Had I been connected hame to hame it might have made a difference. What system do you used Mark?

Donn, even though it did not help in this case, I do not agree that the only use is when they are not hooked to something. As my case illustrates, there are several equipment failures that can happen while hooked during which a butt rope might help – failure of the evener, single tree, trace chain, tug, among them. I have broken several wooden eveners before switching to all steel for example.

I am often reminded that b/c it hasn’t happened doesn’t mean it can’t or won’t happen. The trick for me is identifying vulnerable aspects of my set up while getting on with the work at hand.

George

[Does’ Leap]

Yes Donn, out of sight out of mind. Been trying to get better about checking that sort of thing. I have also broken several poles and a neck yoke. Bottom line is that stuff brakes. However, the stakes are much higher when working with horses. Kristan had no control of lines b/c the horse who got whacked by the single tree turned inside out.

Stay safe.

George

PS Both pins in the above picture were equally worn. The angle is slightly off on the top pin.

[Does’ Leap]

Oh yeah, the pharmacy I used for the doxy was Rood and Riddle, you can look them up on line, but I was told by my vet it would be over $1000 to treat my mare as well.

Kristan

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Hi Carl,

We treated a mare for lyme last spring. She had originally come from PA so I had hoped she picked it up there, it is a real bummer to have our horses up here getting it, because from what I have read it is a really big deal for people.

You can get compounded doxycycline from different pharmacies that is much cheaper than the vet, your vet needs to give you a scrip but I think I treated my mare for 6 weeks for less than $200 and she was much improved. Then throw in any immune support you can think of, and ledum is supposed to be beneficial as well.

In my many conversations with people dealing with this I did come across a non conventional treatment some are turning to. A friend I really respect had a barn in CT and constantly had her horses on doxy and they kept getting sick and sicker. SHe resorted to using the dog vaccine as a treatment and it apparently worked miracles for her horses, she is now in Northern VT so that may have solved some of her problems as well. I did some research on this protocol and it is apparently being used in some really hard hit areas, I did not go for it, but it is in the back of my mind if I end up with continued issues.

Good luck, I’d be interested to know what you do and how your mare turns around,
Kristan

[Does’ Leap]

Here’s what I use – http://www.kencove.com/fence/Electric+Net+Fencing_detail_NSGG.php

Many of my strategies for fencing goats were covered in my post on grazing horses in this thread – http://daclresources.org/forums/topic/grazing-schedule-for-veggie-horses/

George

• This reply was modified 10 years, 9 months ago by Does' Leap.
• This reply was modified 10 years, 9 months ago by Does' Leap.
• This reply was modified 10 years, 9 months ago by Does' Leap.

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