[Droverone]

It seems that you are in a odd size there, 6.5, and not that it hasn’t been done before, but is that the size they really need and do they really need another 1.5 inches? Are they beef breed or dairy?

[Droverone]

” I don’t think I want a sensitive breed, but I also don’t want to get into power struggles with a stong willed animal either. “

Well then you don’t want a Chianina…………. Period, although I am sure Howard Vanord might have an exception.

Howard Vanord stated to me a long time ago that crossbreeds can improve due to to hybrid vigor, so you can hardly go wrong with cross breeds.

Large cattle, tall cattle, are prone to joint problem
Short , beef style are prone to obesity

So cross breed and be prepared to keep the style that suits you.

Holsteins tend to be a little thick headed, Devon’s are smart and quick

Holsteins tend to be a little thick headed, shorthorns tend to be sharp

Ayrshires, no matter what is said are no more prone to kicking than any other breed!!!!!!

Crossbreeds of any of these will make fine steers, why not, they have for centuries!

[Droverone]

First and foremost get a breed that suits you!

Dealing with a breed that you are not entirely satisfied with is like a bad marriage. Get a breed that your heart and soul is completely in love with.

Devon’s are not for everyone, they are smarter than most of the teamsters that have them, few people that have them do the breed justice for the intelligence that they have. They are easily deceiving I the hands of masterfull leadership. *Herefords are not for everyone, they are strong but the purebreds can be sullen, and they are prone to obesity. Crossbreed versions in there various *proven forms are designed to remove some of these qualities and enhance the overall hybrid vigor.

Small herd numbers can be fine, but the use of a breed that is all one color or pattern removes the chances that you don’t get “matching pairs” like the guys in new England “have to have”!
Erika bucked the system and she’s as happy as can be!

Having all heifers and or cows, related and that are bred to the same bull, makes choosing animals that are destined to be framed alike easier too. There are a lot of subtleties and nuances that are not being directly discussed. *Andy has a group of heifers that are all related, and they “ALL” will be bred to a bull, THE SAME BULL! His father had three cows and was somehow able to regularly get a pair of bull calves to train, but sometimes he got heifers and he trained them too!

There are and enormous amount of variables that none of us can comprehensively and realistically discuss here, all of which have been manipulated and contorted over the generations, until we reach what is “apparent oxen culture” today. Don’t be fooled into conforming to what others think is correct, just because it works for them, find what fits you! *No matter where you are!

New England Ox culture with its extensive history is a fickle beast, and the haute couture is just that, made to custom fit that particular culture, and if they don’t adjust and adapt, they will find that it does not fit everyone!

Do what you want, no matter where you are………

Safety first
Happiness second
Fulfillment to follow…………..

[Droverone]

Mmmmmmmmmm…….
That’s not where I was going with that.

[Droverone]

Well if you think you can keep small numbers to raise calves for oxen, I can tell you from personal experience, you better have a lot of patience because if you want bull calves, you are destined to get a lot of heifer!

For example:

I was given a cow that had 5 bull calves her first 5 pregnancies, she has has had 7 heifers in the last five pregnancies!
Yes 7, 2 consecutive sets of twin heifers, one AI and one live cover!

Be, be, be prepared…..

[Droverone]

How far is too far?
1600 miles is my limit
Know yours

[Droverone]

20 years ago I witnessed what happened with a pair of poinies that had a ring slip off the end of the yoke, allowing the pole to drop. Not only did the wagon boot them the yoke kept slapping them while they ran around a race track at a county fairgrounds. I quit using wooden neck yokes with pressed ends with rings, after I saw this happen because the wood had dried in the summer heat and the ring and all it’s attachments slipped right off like a hammer head off a handle.

[Droverone]

And most importantly, make sure there is a stop at the end of the tongue so that the tongue does not slide thru the other ring and the wagon boots the team in the backside, repeatedly, in rapid succession as they run off and you try to stop them…….

[Droverone]

Pull the pin out of the evener, remove the evener, replace the pin, hook the chain to the yoke, and then back to the evener pin, or use a “t” pin in then end of he tongue.

[Droverone]

Substantial and explicit guidelines that carry enormous disciplinary penalties and event organizers with ethical and morale conviction to enforce them. The best way to cure the problem is to make it monetarily prohibitive for participants to violate the statute.

Alienation is the only action. Diplomacy is admirable and respected, but Carl your forum and actions are exemplary and have, in themselves, set the precedence for others to strive to achieve. In doing this you have exhibited a level of credibility far in excess of anything that would be comparable to the derogredation we are in fear of….

[Droverone]

I’m quite concerned about the overall perception and acceptance of the behavior in question and its impact on destiny of the Ox. * Most assuredly Carl’s conceptualized theology about the transition from other aspects into the DAP network is rewarding, I still believe that the tremendous impact the pulling cattle facet of the industry is making on “our” overall perception, 1. Because of the publicity that inhumane treatment receives, and 2. Because people in great numbers,comparable to fair goers, are not searching out farms and wood lots and the newspapers and televisions are not actively searching for good news to print.

I must confess to my own share of flashes of notoriety, *but they are just that, local and low key and I have never searched out any sort of photo recognition or newsworthy accolade. In 25 years of working, farming and (twice) showing oxen I have only gone to events to seek out instruction and validation of techniques applications, I cannot believe that anyone here would condone nor accept the continual, uninterrupted repetitious striking of an animal for the mere purpose of gaining a higher placing. *Additionally I cannot conceive that anyone here, would conceptualized and practice deprivation of nourishment and hydration of themselves or their animals, and the fact that there are “seemingly ethical” participants these competitions, the harsh reality is that these are not the norm……

The norm is harmfully deteriorating the mass, like a gigantic cancer. *There are assuredly great teamsters out there, I am well aware of who they are. *The greats are so few now, that the light of their achievements is now overshadowed by this great problem. *Animal rights activists are taking stands at fairs and pulls actively attempting to stop these events in their tracks. My friendship with fair organizers has led me to this sensitive subject and information. Their activity in government will assuredly lead to restraints of the freedom of choice that we enjoy to own, train and work oxen. Do not doubt this facts inevitability, when they make it illegal in public it will rapidly become illegal in the privacy of your own farm.

It’s disturbing to witness event organizers scold and become visibly disturbed at the sight of more than 1/3 of youth participants use overly harsh and clearly visible violations of the event guidelines for the ethical and humane treatment of their animals. *The saddest part of relating this is that when I inquired about this “trend” I was informed that it was just the way the youths were mimicking what they were seeing occur in the adult classes, or at home……

I am but one and so are each of you, we are here and we are united as such. We are freely exchanging information that is accurate, instructive and insightful. But the purpose of this thread we to make an enlightened perception of what was happening other places on other forums, and thank whomever and all who have made this, forum, possible………

[Droverone]

“competitive oxen pulling and what is it doing to oxen driving as a whole”

This a sad and unrewarding topic…

This is not specific to the US, Canada is succumbing to the same idiotic path.

With the impulse for many people “return to the land” , many and most are only dabbling or “hobbyist” with professional careers consuming the majority of their time. *We are all painfully aware of this.

Now this relates to oxen, and pulling specifically in the aspects of training and conditioning. *People who don’t have the time, purchase, own and publicly display,*then compete with improperly trained and conditioned animals with catastrophic and tragic results. *The lack of training results in animals that are nearly uncotrolable, which leads to extreme amounts of force, that are needed to attempt to control nearly uncontrollable animals. *Furthermore the need to win is so overwhelming that many people find it nessesary to starve and hold water in a twisted belief in its nessecity to be able to compete at a level their animals are able to perform in classes that juvenile animals are supposed to compete. *One animal I have personally seen, was 1/3 the size of a sibling at the exact same age, whilst his mate suffered irreversible physiological damage and had to be destroyed……..

What this is doing irreversibly to the overall oxen program in the north eastern United States and Canada, is educating the next generation, by example and demonstration that, inhumane barbaric and cruel methods are not only the norm but they are rewarded, with ribbons and trophies.

4-h er’s have to be scolded for overuse of the goad stick, animals that are put on public display and underweight and in the poorest of condition, and the training is pathetic, and MINIMALLY people in positions of authority have to be bitterly chided to make judgement and diciplanary calls on humane and ethical treatment by teamsters, young and old.

One instance of deprivation happened publicly where an Ox collapsed in public whilst “competing”! And took great efforts by a veterinary professional to revive and invigorate the animal enough to remove it from the arena, by the animals own means. *Another happened where oxen were competing in a international competition and the oxen of one country were so malnourished and underweight that the competition was cancelled after this particular years event.

Again……

Driving oxen is an art form, and when you see it in its purest most highly disciplined form it is almost breathtaking. *When our forefathers struggled to make a crop of hay and grain to sustain their stock to be able to make the next years, they never thought of how little they could get away with feeding, they strived to feed them enough or more! *When our forefathers dug wells they wanted as much as possible so that the stock would always have MORE THAN ENOUGH! *When our forefathers developed competitions for oxen, it was to exhibit and display the grandeur and majesty of the highest levels of animal husbandry, training and conditioning. *These high levels of ethics have all but disappeared.

We need to remember that just because you own animals it does not automatically make you a teamster, driver or drover. *Earning ribbons and trophies is an honor and a privilege, reserved for the highest of a class of lowly drovers that strive constantly to gain recognition for a craft that has all but been forgotten as an integral building block of civilizations history.*

We cannot allow the the end of something this important to occur because of the negligence of ignorant selfish people, who’s ill conception of normalcy has led to this discussion. *When we all keep quiet, turn the blind eye, and *mundanely continue on the path we are on, we are doomed to fail not only ourselves but our forefathers dreams and aspirations. We are destined to be but memoirs in books, displays in museums. *There is a very strong likelihood that the next generation may never be able to see a live Ox! *There may be laws that outlaw training and publicly displaying oxen, and for all the novelty Oxen provide the end is painfully and rapidly approaching.

[Droverone]

Thanks for the positive inputs, as usual I have tiptoed around to keep from directing my frustrations with pointed statements.

For instance and clarification:

One specific instance with rural heritage that happened a couple novembers ago, *a few of my ox friends, who happen to be female, posted some interesting inquiries about an oxen event in Kentucky at an equine facility, when organizers falsely claimed that they had to bring in “REAL” oxen fom New England, because there were no “REAL” oxen in Kentucky, when my friends called me, I encouraged them to let people know where the “REAL” oxen were in kentucky and who owned them. *None of these post were ever seem on the front porch. *It was a complete farse and highly offensive to native Kentucky Ox owners, who additionally called the park of host, and were not even respectfully acknowledged for their legitamacy.

Oxen are declining faster than imaginable, additionally the damage that Pulling oxen teamsters are doing is catastrophic! *Before the end of my life I expect it will be illegal to work cattle, and use a goad or whip to even move an animal! *Education, true accurate and factual in nature, is our best defense! *The time to act is NOW!

People like Howard Vanord, Ray Ludwig, Gordon Robinson, Tom Cavanaugh and others cannot do this alone. *Teaming, driving or whatever term you wish to use is an art form that could be lost to history if we don’t act and act quickly. *Subverting the information for whatever reason is not helping the cause. The free and uninhibited exchange of good humane methods is essential or the survival of this ancient art form. *Oxen have contributed to the building of almost every aspect of our early civilization and now we are on the precipice of loosing its history to foolish and inhumane practices.

Selfishness and arogance is not going to precipate a favorable light on our cause. *Selflessness and diligence will have to be continually encouraged and rewarded if we are to perservere.

[Droverone]

Well technology is a great thing, none of us can dispute this.

The facts here remain that there are a huge number of people that are missing out on the real, true and accurate information that they need!

Furthermore the Facebook group is contorted to one persons opinion of what they personally want people to see, the same as on rural heritages font porch.

If one peron, the arbitrator, doesn’t like what is sent then it is never seen.

I know for a fact, from my closest friends, that this is happening, both on the Facebook , All things oxen page as well as the rural heritage,front porch.

I am encouraged and thankful for this forum and it’s vigorous patronages free thinking inputs.

[Droverone]

I collected many signatures of the oldest people in the book “In praise of oxen”, including Claude Silver and Leo bolivar, I wanted to find Gordon Lohnes because I have a yoke he made but he was not at any of the events I attended.
The book was a completely noted, names and places, copy that originally belonged to Arthur Young’s mother.

[Author]

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