[Gulo]

@mitchmaine 21710 wrote:

hi john, i was commiserating with a fellow logger working alone roadside, wondering what the local loggers thought of his half load of logs piled roadside for the day. and all i could think putting myself in their shoes, cause i was there once, was that they might be thinking “man, wouldn’t it be great working a horse in the woods.” but being strapped to $1,000,000. worth of equipment and payments, have to make some remark about size and money to support what they do, even if they secretly wish their life was a whole lot simpler. what do you bet?????????

mitch

No, you can’t use horses and expect to compete on a heavy industrial level, no question. Logging or farming or anything else. But nor should you expect to, nor on the other hand take this as a deal-breaker. You have to find, or create, a niche market for yourself. You’ll get nowhere trying to turn apples into oranges.

Easier said than done, I know. About the only way i know to do it now is CSA farming. Don’t know if horse logging pays anymore. I know in the area i was considering it, it has gone by the wayside (along with most of the rest of the economy!)

Of course, I got to thinking later, even doing “quaint” things with horses is worthwhile if that’s your way of keeping the skills alive. And JAC, sounds to me like you’re going beyond that!

[Gulo]

@416Jonny 3630 wrote:

“Oooooo….look at the loggers, they’re using mules! Awwww…..how quaint!”

The same comment applies to most of the portrayals of draft animal power in my area at least, and so often perpetuated by the draft animal people themselves. The vast majority of people I know with draft horses in my area, for instance, engage them primarily in nostalgia events. Or my personal pet-peeve, the “giant hitch” – the draft worlds’ version of the monster truck rally.

Many people with teams seem to have the same headspace themselves: “this playing with horses is fun/nostalgic – but I won’t pretend there’s any modern application.”

I’d take time to see someone using a single horse to do just about anything that involves their actual real world economy – i wouldn’t cross town to see a big hitch the only purpose of which is some stunt, or another nostalgia-fest.

Not that it matters much – the headspace that includes the draft animal as a part of the antidote to where we’ve arrived, is a very different one from the headspace that sees the draft animal as a quaint step in our evolution to some supposedly higher ground. It’s an entire philosophy of life, one that I expect the guys who run heavy machinery all week and play with their draft animals only when there’s time probably don’t subscribe to. You either have it or you don’t, and it needs no defense. It’s not a place you can persuade people to go, in my experience – they either get it or they don’t.

I wonder if anyone on here feels like this, or if i’m being overly harsh.

[Gulo]

I had one great mentor, but he was a mentor in natural horsemanship – hands-on roundpenning stuff, and a little driving. I am very grateful to him.

The great majority of the time it was me alone on the farm with my new drafts and my Lynn Miller books. It was a bit hair-raising at times – they weren’t the best horses. One of those situations that you wouldn’t recommend, but having lived through it yourself, wouldn’t have wanted it any other way, either.

Getting through some hard stuff like that early on gives a person some resilience fast, and makes the easier days that follow seem like a dream. I don’t have to wonder what it’s like to work more challenging horses – I started with ’em!

[Gulo]

@PhilG 20030 wrote:

My neighbor has a couple dozen Yak’s, any one ever harness or pull with them?

We have some yaks, and yes they do taste very good! Probably the best red meat i’ve eaten.

We originally thought we might get some draft work out of them, as they do in their native climes. But we soon found out you’d kill them working them in anything but winter conditions. They overheat very easily even in tepid weather.

The reason they’re so small is probably inbreeding – reduced size has been a problem in isolated herds in their native lands for this reason. The solution there was the introduction of wild yak genes. It worked! Wild yaks are a whole different ballgame – they look similar, but are closer to Bison in size. Can’t be done here due to importation laws. At any rate, our yaks are very small, too. All the yaks in North America descended from a small group in Canada, so i’m told. The gene pool is probably about shoe-sole deep.

[Gulo]

Thanks, bivol.

I still can’t really make out what they are doing with the pole (wagon pole, yes.) It must be attached to something between the animals, but i can’t tell what. Is that some kind of cross-bar?

[Gulo]

They moo loudly – actually say “moo” much more so than a cow, in my estimation – sometimes drawing the sound out long and very loud, terminating at times with loud “whoof” at the end. Also, for close-up communication, they make a variety of frog-like bleats, which they sometimes elaborate on by moving their tongue around.

[Gulo]

@Biological Woodsman 10507 wrote:

It would seem possible it is about herd behavior or being herd bound. It is normal for a horse alone that is not very secure with their handler to be less settled, relaxed, confident and brave when not in the company of other horses.

I have one herd-bound mare, a horse that had her six first years at pasture, that is impossible to drive single. She only works with the herd leader, so that’s how i work her. Don’t know if this applies here or to anyone, but thought i’d second the observation.

[Gulo]

My horses are on pasture, i call them in to work and grain them then, maybe a third of a big bucket each. I let them loiter awhile, relax, (maybe half hour), harness and hitch ’em then. I don’t think it’s a science. If i am doing two sessions that day, i water them, grain them again, and probably give them some hay/fresh cut grass. Some guys mix this as a chop. I do like them to have some grass in their stomachs, some bulk. Otherwise, I find my horses with the highest food drives are constantly distracted by the sight of whatever fresh grass we may be passing. It’s a pain.

[Gulo]

I am in south-central Alberta. Our yaks came from two herds, one just north of us and another west of Red Deer, Alberta – the latter probably the largest herd in Canada, now. Yaks originally came to North America via Canada, and i think until the past decade or so we had the largest herds, but in fairly recent years many were bought by Americans. I may be wrong, but i think the largest yak herd on this continent is now in Nebraska.

If I lived in a warmer climate, i would be working on a herd of water buffalo. They are majestic and fascinating animals. We really like the yaks, too. We are building a small herd. Whether or not we stay with them will depend on how well they milk for us.

[Gulo]

We have two water buffalo about 2.5 years old now and trained to pull in the harness, though not doing any real work yet. I’m going to get them on the spike tooth harrows this summer for short spells.

We believe water buffalo are more personable, gentle, tractable and probably more intelligent than cattle. I understand that when feral adults of the domestic type are rounded up from the wild, even full grown males can be handled with relative safety in a matter of weeks. So, this said, you shouldn’t have much problem. Putting them in halter and leaving them tied for increasing intervals is an excellent first step to getting them used to handling. My only advice having trained ours is to be easy with the goad or stick or crop or whatever you use for handling. Being very gentle and in our experience affectionate animals, they are very sensitive to an overzealous hand and being too disciplinary with them is a good way to have them panic and to loose control of them!

As far as other animals go, ours get along well with our clydesdales and yaks. Interestingly, they seem to identify slightly more with the horses than with the yaks. If the two herds are separate, the buffalo will usually choose to be with the horses – the horses are more tolerant of them than they are of each other at times. Nonetheless, they also like to spar with our yak bull and our subordinate team buffalo became a babysitter for newborn yaks, keeping everyone away from the baby until momma returned. They are fascinating, majestic and endearing animals. If you have a body of water for them on hot days, oh boy do they love this! They will dive right under water.

Good choice and good luck!

[Gulo]

@WVDrafty 5947 wrote:

Hello. This is my first post. I’ve been reading here for sometime now. Just thought I would post some pictures of my 2 Belgian X QH. They are 5 and 6 year old full sisters. Approx. 15 hands, 1500 lbs. This is our first team of horses. I am interested in how the crosses compare to full drafts.

Horses just like these were responsible for most of the work done on farms here on the northern plains before the tractor. There were travelling pure draft-stallions brought around to serve the farm mares, whatever they were, and plenty would be quarter horse type. And these horses of yours were what resulted, and what did the work.

How do they compare to pure drafts? Pound for pound maybe stronger. That said, I doubt they’d pull as much as my 2200 pound plus Clyde/Percheron mare, but so what? They are field-tested under reality conditions – do or die! – and they brought in the harvest.

Beyond that, it’s all just a matter of personal preference. My Clydesdales won’t pull as much as another man’s Belgians, but they pull enough, and the bottom line is, i’d never trade ’em for another man’s Belgians. A horse doesn’t have to be the best, just good enough, and most importantly to me, it has to be the horse you want to work with, year after year. And as i said, history has shown that those horses of yours will be more than “good enough.”

[Gulo]

@Plowboy 4384 wrote:

Gulo, An old timer said to me once, ” You know what the difference between a Shire and a Clydesdale is don’t you?” . “No what is it?” …………” Nothin”. As he chuckled and walked away. Any Privately owned Clydes and Shires I have seen around here I don’t even stop to look at poor feet, bad pasterns etc. The budweiser Clydesdales were here last fall and I would have to say they were pretty nice. Good feet and legs deep bodied and well kept. They were probably the nicest Clydes I had seen until you posted your pictures on the photo page. You my friend have some nice looking horses.

Shires vs Clydes… Plowboy, i was reflecting more on Shires and Clydes today, especially in light of the fact that when i started out i had boiled it down to choosing between these too. What i began to see (in my eyes, anyway) is that today’s Shires, while often touted as being the true heavyweight of the two, are in my mind not as nicely put together as the Clyde. Take a look at enough Shires and Clydes side by side (i’ve driven a Shire/Clyde team in fact, which is truly “side by side” and examined many other examples of both breeds) and what you come up with is the impression that the Clyde is noticably the more proportionate of the two. The Clyde will have better bone in the leg, noticably larger feet to balance, and a more proportionate head. The Shire by comparison, even if it is a bigger horse, will have proportionately spindlier (thinner) if not longer legs, smaller feet, and narrower, smaller head. Which to me makes it look like you took a heavy-horse torso and pasted on extremities that don’t quite match. But again, that’s only after looking at a lot of Clydesdales in direct comparison. The show crowd has certainly done their best in some cases to do away with a lot of the best looking Clydesdales, too – many are too tall, not generous enough in the feather department, too long in the head, and too uniform in colour. Which is why the nicest ones are often roans – the ones the show breeders mostly avoid and which therefore still include the best genes.

[Gulo]

@amanda07 5041 wrote:

You’re thinking mules then

I like the big, really dark mules with the tan noses and highlights. Are those percheron mules? Some very handsome animals, no doubt.

[Gulo]

@amanda07 5036 wrote:

At just three years, with all that bone growing still to do! Personally, and I’m feeling a little lonely here, I wouldn’t be asking for heavy work until five or six. physical and mental/attitude problems arise when we ask for too much too soon, just ask my mule!

Well, perhaps that’s better. I have not heard of shortened working life in horses that began working at three, but if someone has, i’d like to know. I’ve been told by a number of teamsters that three is a good age to get them doing the work, but maybe they were mistaken!

[Gulo]

Which do you like better, personally? We only have so much room for animals here. If you’re really attracted to an animal, and it will work well for the job, pick that animal over one that may work better but has no appeal to you.

If this is important to you. I realize that to some people it is not. My personal preference, having to pay for and feed and care for everything regardless, is to have a crew of critters that beautifies the place (in my mind) as well as does the job. That i can look out at over my coffee and think, “Man, that is a sight!” Once you’ve filled your stomach, what fills the spirit? Beauty feeds the soul.

[Author]

Posts