[Gulo]

Andre – as i understand it, you won’t know if you started them too young until later, when lameness shaves years from their working life. If you have other horses, why not wait til three yrs old at least to really get ’em working? They take to it so fast anyway if you’ve been with them all along doing ground work. I don’t think you’re gaining anything much by working them before this – unless of course you’re short on horsepower.

[Gulo]

It is always easier to resort to a tractor, if you have one on hand. If that’s what you normally resort to, that’s what you’re better with. What i’ve learned about farmers around here with drafts is that they see the horses as something you fool around with when you have time, take to parades, whatever. It’s an attitude thing, to an extent – they are no longer seen as a serious working tool. Furthermore, it takes more energy to work them, and many farmers today are not in very good physical condition.

We don’t own a tractor and don’t intend to. When we have a job to do, the horses are therefore what we use. Again, my main point being that for many people on any given day, if the tractor is there, they are as likely to use it as go to the lengths of harnessing the horses.

We had teams cutting 90 acres of hay this past year at the neighbor’s, who farm with both machines and horses. My neighbor figured the economics, all told, factoring the time, worked out similar or slightly in favor of using the horses to get the job done.

[Gulo]

Carl – have you ever heard of oxen and horses used together in a mixed-hitch? I’m pretty sure i’ve seen pictures of this. Is it hard on the oxen?

[Gulo]

Doc – i first spotted Raven in a neighbor’s pasture, and was awestruck. I too thought she was a Shire! About the only thing un-shire like about her is her head, with a broad straight profile like a Clyde, rather than the more narrow, roman nosed profile of many shires. Anyway, she was sold to me as a pure “registerable black Clydesdale.” It took me the best part of a year to track down her actual lineage from the guy who originally brought her to Alberta!

Another cross i’m entertaining as a Clydesdale man nonetheless keen on crosses, is Clyde x Gypsy Drum horse. These gypsy horses are, to me, in many cases just smaller, more ruggedly built Clydesdales with the added advantage of already having a mixed lineage (including usually lots of Clydedale and Cob blood.) When i first began looking at them, and comparing them with the increasingly poor quality of the the show Clydes, i thought “here’s the salvation of the type!”

I too really like the look of that morgan/percheron.

[Gulo]

The biggest stumbling block, i think, is laziness. There’s a reason why pre-industrial farmers were mostly lean and hard – working with animals takes way more physical effort, even before you reach the garden, and after, too. Most people would rather turn a key and ride.

How you address this issue is beyond me! Maybe if you can somehow motivate them just enough to fully experience the wonder of working with animals, just once, they’ll realize it’s more than worth the extra effort. But remember, there were plenty of farmers, so they tell me, who couldn’t wait to scrap their horses for a tractor.

[Gulo]

Carl – i was just reading this from “New York Magazine”: “The system really was about six hours from failing,” says Gene Lange, a manager at a midtown hedge fund, referring to the week in September when Lehman went bust and AIG had to be bailed out. “When you think about how close we were to the precipice, I don’t think it necessarily makes a guy crazy to prepare for the potential worst-case scenario.” along with this: “In his book Wealth, War and Wisdom published last year, former Morgan Stanley chief global strategist Barton Biggs advised people to prepare for the possibility of a total breakdown of civil society.”

And of course, many believe the crash has only been postponed by the bailouts – imaginary money – by several months. Hyperinflation, among many other dire things, seems a given now. Myself, when i look at the big picture today, I can contemplate that this is indeed “it.” We have been headed for crash since the first days of industrialization – it’s always just been a matter of when. I personally hope things crash fast, whenever it happens. It would be more merciful on many levels, and would be our best hope of getting back to a sustainable future for our children – those of us who survive, that is.

One thing’s sure – we’ve pretty much used the surplus of this world up. I doubt if we have the resources left to dig ourselves out this time.

[Gulo]

@Plowboy 4384 wrote:

Gulo, An old timer said to me once, ” You know what the difference between a Shire and a Clydesdale is don’t you?” . “No what is it?” …………” Nothin”. As he chuckled and walked away. Any Privately owned Clydes and Shires I have seen around here I don’t even stop to look at poor feet, bad pasterns etc. The budweiser Clydesdales were here last fall and I would have to say they were pretty nice. Good feet and legs deep bodied and well kept. They were probably the nicest Clydes I had seen until you posted your pictures on the photo page. You my friend have some nice looking horses.

Thanks very much, Plowboy! I’ve seen some bad clydes too (many of the blacks i’ve seen are not very well put together, being bred primarily for colour.) I’m happy to say ours are very beautiful, sound, nice tempered and good working conformation (granting that a clyde is supposed to be a little lighter than a pure farmhorse in order to be good for more tasks, like roadwork). They’re more like old-school clydes – not too tall, still lots of substance. We were lucky to find a breeder who was not a showman. Apparently Canada, at least historically, had better Clydes than the U.S. And the roan individuals, which are not “in fashion”, are often the best examples of the breed for conformation and other aspects of quality of all. I personally like the roans best of all aesthetically, too. But you’ll never see a roan Clyde stallion, as far as I know! They geld ’em all. Maybe i’ll be the first to keep one intact and breed it.

I had an English shire/clyde show judge who said he used to not know which was which until he saw the papers, but now they’re a little more divergent. I personally think the clydes are more aesthetic and move more gracefully (for whatever that’s worth – which isn’t much pulling a plow, i guess!), and tend to have proportionately larger feet.

Bivol – that’s a great looking horse in that pic! Reinforces my belief as i’ve said in other threads that overall Europe must be a much better place for finding great, old-school draft horses than North America.

I’ll also add that if I were looking for a smaller draft, i’d definately give the Dales Pony a try – if i could find one!

[Gulo]

I’ve seen that second pic. That guy’s not very smart. Would be far better allocation of brawn vs brains to reverse things there – have a big hitch of men, with a woman driving.

[Gulo]

Hi Doc. I have posted some pics of our big Clyde/Percheron cross, Raven, in the photos section under working the single animal (on a spike-tooth harrow) and Favorite photos.

Essentially, she’s like a black clydesdale on steroids. Many also ask me if she’s a Shire. She’s got a ton of character (and well over a ton of weight!) and really likes to please. Apparently the clyde/perch is known for retaining the feather i like.

I’ve also thought a good cross might be one of our pure Clydes with a roan Brabant.

I think the future of draft horses (any domestic animal) lies in crossing – breeding for “type” rather than breed.

[Gulo]

I always thought the best advice was to first figure out which breed (of smaller work horse in your case) appeals to you most aesthetically, then most importantly, find the best individual horse within that breed that you can. I think when it comes to temperament, there is more variation within a lot of the breeds than between them.

Another very nice pony aesthetically to my mind that apparently works very well at draft is the Dales – I think there may be some in Ontario.

[Gulo]

I have one mare who is herd-bound. She is strongly bonded to the dominant horse in the herd, so much so that she can’t be worked solo, for instance (she is unmanageable without the dominant horse with her.) But she does fine in a hitch with this dominant horse, or with other dominant horses, so she’s still a workable horse, and works well. If i want a single hitch, i use one of the other girls, so there’s an example of how a herd-bound horse can be workable, if the horse(s) she is bonded to are also broke.

I could likely sever this bond, but as it is, it’s not currently a problem. A wise trainer once said, when asked how to cure a herd-bound horse: “Easy – separate it from the herd!” Once it’s alone, you spend plenty of time with it and get it to bond to you, instead.

My big dominant mare came with a partner who was a runaway. She did indeed act as an anchor for this other horse, and saved us from serious mishap. We soon enough sold the other horse cheap to someone who insisted they could work with her. She was not worth the risk to us.

[Gulo]

Have you hobble-trained your horse? I hobble-train mine, front feet and back to one hind, first in the pen to get them used to the hobbles in conjunction with “whoa” (if they start to figit in the hobbles, i tell them “whoa” before I think they’re going to get tripped up. You need skilled help for this. It’s best a job for two, even when you’re experienced.)

But this isn’t enough. You then need to take them out to a situation and hobble them when they’re “pointed back at home” and you know they’re likely to bolt, and make them stand in the hobbles. If they start to fight and go down, tell them “whoa!” emphatically. It may take several sessions.

And it may not work with a given horse. We’ve had a bad horse and sold her too, cheap, with full disclosure to the buyer.

My neighbor, a long time teamster with quite a herd of Belgians, uses the “running W” successfully on habitual runaways. He’s a rodeo cowboy and prepared for, well, a rodeo! Me, i think i’d contemplate ridding myself of the horse before that point.

Also, anyone using this horse should do lots of round-penning with this horse to assert dominance, and make sure you’re getting submission before you go back out. And it’s not enough for you to do this and then your daughter to get on the horse. I think all the people using the horse all need to spend time teaching it they’re boss.

[Gulo]

If the animal is young, don’t expect too much. They get better as they mature, is what i find. Time will solve problems for you if you keep at it in little sessions. Sometimes, if the session has gone very well, i will try not to do the things i know will upset the animal on the way back, the ol’ “end on a good note” thing.

If you can get the animal to stand willingly on the way back, praise him and start him sometimes before he gets agitated. Again, you’ve accomplished your motive without making the experience frustrating for the animal.

[Gulo]

I have two additional questions related to this thread that probably don’t deserve a thread of their own.

One was, what about a bull that has finished his breeding needs on your place that is then surgically castrated? Will this animal then become like a nicer-tempered ox with the muscling of a bull? I’ve been contemplating doing this with our yak bull.

Also, for Carl – i have had the opposite advice from some, being – be too familiar and make a pet of your bull and that’s where the trouble starts – he loses respect. As a result i’ve reluctantly limited contact lately with our breeding yak bull, who was very much a pet, worried that it was the wrong approach. But maybe letting him get more wild is the wrong approach?

[Gulo]

Then there are weed-seeds that can be spread in manure, another reason for composting – kills the seeds.

Then there are pesticides. Quite a few people around here cut “ditch hay” – they mow the grass on the road allowances for ‘free’ hay. It’s a great idea, except for one thing. The county sprays the verges with something called “Tordon” to control thistles and such. Tordon has as much as a five year residual effect. They say it won’t hurt your livestock (of course they say that, it never does “hurt” anything when you ask, does it?), but what it will do is kill your crops if you use manure from animals that have eaten this ditch hay. So i wouldn’t want manure from people feeding ditch hay.

All this is another reason for a biodynamic model where your inputs all come from the farm itself.

If you do your own composting, remember to cover the manure, either with tarps or under sheds so that weather doesn’t leach out the nutrients. Ours goes six months to a year at which time it smells like nice fresh humus.

[Author]

Posts