[Rick Alger]

I would have to see the site to make a rational bid, and it’s a long way from Milan, NH, so I’ll give you an off-the-wall estimate to see if it’s worth getting together. It could take two to five weeks for me and my team of horses to cut and skid, maybe longer, because of the 2000 foot skid. A lot depends on the size and volume of the wood. Do you have an inventory?

It’s not clear how the slash would be managed. If you can burn in that town, that would probably be the best way to clean it up. If you plan to chip, then someone would have to rent an industrial chipper. Either way the clean-up could take at least a week depending on how much help is at hand. Skidding brush 2000 feet and then hauling it to a landfill would take forever.

I would need a place to pitch a tent or otherwise hole up, and a spot to pasture and water my horses.

I assume the wood is mostly low grade but fairly heavily stocked, ie it has enough value and volume so that it can at least be sold and cover paying the trucker, but it does not represent a significant commercial return.

So based on the scenario above, roughly five weeks labor for man and team, no chipper rental, and a place to set up rough quarters for me and my horses, I would take the job for $4,500 with any after-trucking log revenue returning to the project.

If this figure is anywhere near what makes sense for your project, I will be glad to visit you and the site in the spring to firm up the estimate.

[Rick Alger]

Simon, I can’t speak for Vermont, but in my part of NH, that would have been a good contract – on the high end – back when small horse crews were common. But today timber companies and mills no longer give contracts based on volume to small operators. The large mechanized operators get the contracts along with slightly better prices and scale.

A lot of timber companies do offer cut-and-skid contracts for small loggers. These pay around $20 a ton for spruce/fir logs and $16 a ton for s/f pulp. The contracts are usually good for a logging season, but weather and other problems can shut a job down. I believe it’s the same in Vermont.

[Rick Alger]

Dave, thanks for the heads up.

[Rick Alger]

I usually pay stumpage. I bid on the standing timber and pay the landowner an agreed amount per mbf or cord based on mill scale. We are expected to utilize trees down to a three-inch top around here, so there is always a pulp figure and a log figure. My pay is what is left after trucking, stumpage, yard building, road maintenance, snow plowing etc. I generally bid 10 – 25 % lower than the going rate for machine operations. I’ve gotten about half the jobs I’ve bid on.

[Rick Alger]

Simon, the answer is, Yes, but … To be an independent sub-contractor, at least in NH, the person has to have his own tools, a track record as a contractor and the freedom to choose how he accomplishes his work. That effectively excludes rookies. The good loggers with these qualifications already have their own machines with big payments. They work as one-man crews with their skidders and saws, and can’t downsize easily.

One possibility I’m looking at is a newer type of business organization called a Limited Liability Partnership. In this arrangement, the partners don’t have to insure each other, and their liability extends only to the assets of the business. Of course It’s almost impossible to get an unsecured loan.

Anyway, thanks again for the input.

[Rick Alger]

Simon, thank you for the detailed reply. That gives me some real numbers to play with. The potential is intriguing. My winter job this year is on a huge private tract harvesting wood that the mechanical guys wouldn’t touch. There is plenty of work ahead.

As we discussed in the past, the challenge I face is paying for worker’s comp insurance on employees. The rate in NH is around 75% of payroll.

Anyway, thanks again for the info, and good luck with the noblemen.

[Rick Alger]

Hello Simon,

Glad to hear the forwarder is working out for you, and congratulations on the award.

Would you mind explaining your crew configuration?

[Rick Alger]

I believe Rural Missourian is looking for a forwarder that will travel from stump to mill. I haven’t been able to locate such a machine.

The Maine Horselogging site (Google) shows a road trailer under “finding a niche” with a swing pole system that works along the lines Dale was suggesting.

In my experience with the relatively small wood in New England and the small top-diameter utilisation you’re more efficient skidding tree-length.

If you have to do the sorting in the yard, a snatch block on tree works okay, but it’s better with a helper.

If you have to truck, you can cross-haul onto a trailer with the team. It also works better with a helper.

[Rick Alger]

I looked into this a while back, and at that time the off-road forwarders were not made to be street legal , and the highway loader/trailers were not suitable for off-road use.

Payeur in Ascot Quebec was one of the companies I spoke with, and Nash equipment in Colebrook, NH was another.

If you find anything new, please share it. It is an ideal concept.

[Rick Alger]

You can measure the board feet in a tree with a scale stick. They are sold by Labonvilles and Baileys. If you buy one, make sure to get the scale that is used in your area.

It sounds like you are looking at a pre-commercial or semi-commercial thinning. Usually the stumpage rate for these cuts is low. Some people get paid to do it, but I haven’t been that lucky.

Last winter I did a 25% pre-commercial thinning of a 15 acre spruce stand and paid 25% of the going stumpage rate. This fall I did semi-commercial selective cut on five acres and paid 80% of the going rate.

Good luck

[Rick Alger]

I think your strategy for next year is sound – frequent use at small jobs. Back in the sixties a lot of farms around here were still mixed power, and they wouldn’t have kept the horses around without a good reason. I’ll bet you have neighbors who did this also. They could tell you which small jobs they used the horses for. Jobs that come to mind from my experience are row crop cultivation, raking, rock removal, fencing, logging and spreading manure.

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