[Tim Harrigan]

I have not had to deal with vines much, sounds like a case where I would just pull it down. That is a case where it would be nice to have a monkey that knows how to work a hatchet. Give him a hard hat and tool belt and stand back.

[Tim Harrigan]

Coccidiosis comes to mind but it could be other parasites as well. Have you treated them at all for internal parasites? I know Erika had a problem with this last year, she may be able to comment. And Elke (CharlyBonifaz) is a veterinarian in Germany and may have some comments. Good to get the vet out to take some samples and make other observations. Good luck with it.

[Tim Harrigan]

Going to be tough getting around in the woods for a while.

[Tim Harrigan]

Maybe you can have an intern come over and tend to the cattle when you are tied up with someone.

[Tim Harrigan]

@Kevin Cunningham 39730 wrote:

Well put, I am amazed at how much of my communication with the steers is body position, and other non verbal cues. If you think about it all but the most vocal animals don’t make half as much sound as we do. Humans can really make a lot of noise in comparison. Maybe we would do better if we didn’t make so much noise all the time.

I agree with that 100%. And the more noise we make the less meaning it has for the animals. My guess is that while chatty teamsters believe they are communicating verbally, the animals actually filter the noise out and rely on visual cues almost exclusively. Animals have limited means to comprehend our intentions so the direction needs to be clear and consistent; otherwise it loses its meaning. I don’t talk much when I am working, mostly when we are on a load and I want them to stay focused. I am sure I talk more when I am driving from behind where it is difficult for them to see me. I also know that when I am silent I can turn or stop them with no more than a slight turn of my hand. They watch closely, and are more perceptive than we often give them credit for. But they are not particularly interested in trying to please you if they are not convinced of the leadership you provide.

These things you mention are why I really do not enjoy being in public with my animals. You really do not realize how focused on them you are until someone is distracting you with these kind of questions. The team can get use to it but they notice the inattentiveness and will take advantage of it if you are not careful.

[Tim Harrigan]

Ed, my approach would be to first go through the video and pictures and pick out the best stuff and start to string it together. Let the story emerge rather than trying to write a script and then selecting the footage and pics to make it fit. This might complicate it a little if you are not doing the editing, but if Jed does this professionally and he has a little artistic freedom it should be OK. In general, I would like to see a healthy dose of technical information with some commentary by the teamsters. I guess I would have to see the footage before I could be more specific.

[Tim Harrigan]

Waiting for the hangman.

[Tim Harrigan]

Andy’s analysis passes my scrutiny. I think the Devons will do fine with the 12 inch plow, just take some time to condition them before you expect to use them hard at that task for a good part of the day. You might also try plowing at 3-5 inches if your soil is suitable and your primary interest is weed control and preparing a seedbed. Plow draft is generally proportional to depth and if you do not need to plow deeper there is no agronomic benefit and you are just working your team harder than necessary. Skim plowing does not have the nice look of deeper cutting, but so what? And if you are averaging 500 lbf with a 14 inch plow my guess is your soil tends to be sandy-loam and probably not too hard to plow.

400 lbf with loose hay is higher than I would guess but if you have hills, or uneven ground I could see some spikes with a full load. Do you have steel tires, or pneumatic? Steel pulls quite a bit harder.

A disk could pull hard in that ground, and a springtooth as well if you set the tines deep.

[Tim Harrigan]

@Hopewell Farm 39269 wrote:

Carl can correct me if I am wrong, but the benefit to runners, specifically metal runners in the snow would be similar to how ice skates work, in that the friction from the runner on the snow melts the snow forming a small amount of liquid which decreases the resistance, creating the advantage. When the forward movement is stopped the liquid refreezes as the heat generated during movement quickly dissipates at rest and essentially freezes the runner to the snow. Depending on the length of the runner this can present a sizable bond that would need to be broken to begin forward movement.

John

@Carl Russell 39409 wrote:

That’s about right John…….It usually takes more than the few minutes that I take to rest my horses, and it happens really infrequently though.

I am aware of the ice skate analogy and I do not think it is an issue of freezing to the ground, at least not in the way we typically think about. When I made those starting draft measurements I did 6 or 8 stops and starts, maybe waiting 10-15 seconds between starts. This is really more of a momentum and friction coefficient issue. This was in 3-4 inches of snow, I don’t recall if the ground was frozen or not. I have not measured this on ice or a hard packed trail. I would not be suprised if it was about the same.

[Tim Harrigan]

That is pretty cool. Do you know how much it weighs? Does the weight seem about right? What kind of wood did you use for the rest of it?

[Tim Harrigan]

@Countymouse 39433 wrote:

… I think the $1 or $20 issue is pretty minor. That said, if everyone gives only $1, I think it is a sign that the concept is not working and we are not communicating effectively….

And that we have one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel.

[Tim Harrigan]

@Mark Cowdrey 39385 wrote:

… if the threshold donation is $1 that at the point of payment there is an explanation in no uncertain terms that this amount is appropriate only for those without the wherewithal to contribute a responsible sum…
Mark

Mark, If I valued this site at $1 per year I would wonder why I was wasting my time visiting. But everyone is different. T

[Tim Harrigan]

@mink 39411 wrote:

george your getting some pretty good mileage with this thread:) from the last 2 posts i learned the horse is a multi-speed beast , being whoa, first gear , second gear and the oh shit this is going to hurt gear.:eek: all said you have a good post going on here . mink

George, I just figured this out earlier today and then saw your question. In this example I will double quote mink and your earlier post. Go to minks post #33 and at the bottom you will see reply, reply with quote and then a little quote bubble. Click on the quote bubble and you will see a check mark appear next to it. Now go down to your post #31 and check that quote bubble so the check appears. Now go back up to minks post and click on Reply with Quote. Both quotes will appear and you can edit appropriately.

@Does’ Leap 39404 wrote:

Hi Carl:

What you write makes a lot of sense. I will try going shorter and piling higher for my firewood. George

[Tim Harrigan]

@Kevin Cunningham 38954 wrote:

… I am also constantly having to haw them towards me, because Joseph, who I have come to learn is herd sour, keeps walking away from me. The result is that I am constantly pestering Joseph on the rump to make him haw. He also has a tendency to lag behind Tex the nigh steer….I inadvertently having been working from a “come haw” position to make up for the constant left ward progression. This is also the only place I can reach their rumps from, because they are getting much larger. My constant badgering of Joseph does not help his already fragile ego and he has been acting up a lot lately…..So I am trying to remedy all this by moving my working position forward….The forward position seems to have the benefit of both steers seeing you, and you are also in front, the dominant position. The down side is that I can’t reach the back end of the steers from here…

It is good that you are experimenting and seeing yourself as an integral part of the way the team works. But your description makes me think some subtle changes in perception and actions might also help. You say you are working toward the back to give better access to the off ox rear end to bring him haw. You also pester him on the rump to speed him up. And he has been acting up a lot. And he seems herd bound and keeps walking away from you.

He may be acting up because he is confused about what your intentions are. If you want to speed him up tap him on the rump and tell him to step up. Before long he should respond to the request without the tap, at least you will not need to tap him every time. Generally, try to separate that tap on the rump from the request to come haw. Sometimes I combine those, but for a specific reason and not when traveling in a straight line. If you need more flexibility and reach to touch him, get a longer whip and a lash that is compatible with what you are trying to do. If you want to bring him haw a little, just reach over and let the lash touch the off ox on the off side near the point of his shoulder. That will cause him to move away from the touch, towards you. I have a command for that, ‘ haw a little’. If you want to bring them tighter a little faster, touch a little harder.

You want to get to the point where your requests and actions are purposeful and deliberate with clear intention understood by your team. If you sense you have to badger them, look for gaps in your communication or training that need to be filled. You might want to decouple taps on the rump from ‘haw’ and ‘hurry up’ for right now.

@Kevin Cunningham 38974 wrote:

…Of course it is easier for me to look to my human teachers for answers but maybe I need to look more to my animals. I am learning to read them better, but sometimes I am stubornly following some path and inadvertently ignoring what they are telling me….I am excited about being able to move more to the front, not as a fixed position but as it has the ability to expand where I can work them from…. So maybe there is no ideal place, but rather there is ideal work from all positions. And I am finding that currently working from the front is really helping my leadership abilities with a steer that is questioning my authority.

It is good that you are open to communication from your steers. It can be hard because there can be a nagging suspicion that they are taking advantage of you if you doubt yourself. But when it is important you will know because they will be increasingly forceful if you refuse to listen. One way they may demonstrate it is by becoming unruly. But that is not the only reason they may be unruly, and they may be unruly to resist some aspects of training that may be necessary.

It is great to be able to work from any position. What is not great is to work in a specific position because it seems to solve problems that are likely actually unresolved. Sometimes I work from the front. I think of that as my ‘brain dead” position. Cattle are generally happy to just follow along there, you can almost see the lights go off, and often they may noticeably relax because they don’t have to think because you are probably asking so little of them. That said, it can cut both ways. You can use it as a useful technique and perhaps a way to get your team to relax, but on the other hand they are not as engaged mentally as they should be. And from a practical point of view it is difficult to lead and see all you should from that position for some tasks. So this may be a useful tool for you, just keep it in perspective as you move forward.

If this steer is nervous you should try to get past the point where you sense you are pestering him with the lash. That is just going to continue to make him nervous. If you move him to the nigh position he may be a little jumpy at first, but it allows you to avoid bothering him with the lash it may work better.

Also, not every steer has the temperment to be a good ox so don’t get down if you just can’t get over the hump with this team. They will teach you a lot for sure.

[Tim Harrigan]

@horsemedic47 39339 wrote:

Didn’t see a video

That’s good. There is no video.

[Author]

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