[Tim Harrigan]

@Carl Russell 22395 wrote:

Here are a few images from an article I wrote in SFJ back in the 90’s.

Thanks, Carl. I look forward to reading that. And great pics, Mitch.

[Tim Harrigan]

@bivol 22317 wrote:

think, one such case was recorded in Tibet in the 30s i think, there oxen were used to haul a stone block neatr the site, and then a chorus of priests with instruments aimed at the block began. the block lifted up and set on its place on top of the hill.

Frozen Loggers Song. And a little help from the oxen.

[Tim Harrigan]

Do you have a frame for that backpack? What do you use it for? Do you pack and pull loads at the same time?

[Tim Harrigan]

Elke, what is the general opinion of the German ox drovers regarding the North American style neck yokes? Our sense is it is very comfortable, durable and functional as long as it fits correctly. But I could see that if the expectation for animal comfort was a 3-pad collar and they were not familiar with the North Americal yoke they might be concerned about it.

[Tim Harrigan]

http://www.textbookofbacteriology.net/kt_toc.html

This is a link to Todar’s on-line Textbook of Bacteriology. If you type in ‘milk’ you will at least get an overview of range of organisms of concern. Listeria is probably one of the most troublesome because it can grow and reproduce at refrigerated temperatures.

I would also cruise the Center for Disease Control website and see what they have. You are probably not going to find the stats cleanly compiled that you want, but you might find some good stuff.

[Tim Harrigan]

I don’t do vegetables but it seems like most growers are not interested in integrating livestock and veges. I know some that use manure in the cropping system, but there are state guidelines for the time lag between manure application and planting. I don’t think the issue of draft animals is addressed directly but I might be wrong. In many crops there would at least be a lag between the last cultivation and harvest. It’s really a risk based issue. I would be more concerned about the risk from irrigation with a contaminated surface water supply than about incidental contact from the animals in the field. Leafy veges like spinach or lettuce would cause more concern because of their ability to create a moist and cool environment protected from UV light and difficulty in washing. With draft animals it would seem like you might need a perfect storm of recent contamination, pathogenic organisms that transmit disease with a low infectious dose and consumption by susceptible individuals such as immune compromised, young or old. It is good that you are attentive to the possibility.

I know a young lady that got crypto from handling calves. Not a happy story.

[Tim Harrigan]

I am looking forward to that. Maybe DAP can help you write your way through it.

[Tim Harrigan]

I have a 350 with a decompression valve and a primer bulb that I have been happy with. I looked at the XP saws and was really tempted but I just do not cut enough to justify investing in that quality of saw. I am sure some of the loggers here cut more in 2 weeks than I do all year. I work alone so it seems like I don’t cut for very long and then I start skidding and other things so I don’t think the hand warmer would be much of a benefit for me. If you cut enough, go for it.

[Tim Harrigan]

That’s it! Keep on rockin’ on.

[Tim Harrigan]

Looks like you have perfect weather so rock on.

[Tim Harrigan]

Geoff, can you describe a sustainable system that included biochar production and use? I am not being critical of the concept, I am all for management alternatives that build soil quality. I am having trouble balancing the scale of production and use. For instance, what does it take to produce a ton of biochar and how much acreage would that cover and have a measurable benefit?

[Tim Harrigan]

@mstacy 22043 wrote:

I think it’s reasonable to assume that we aren’t going to exceed 1hp per animal for extended time durations. I’m talking about real work, not a 6 foot exhibition pull. 1hp = 550 foot*pounds/second. Given that a draft animals gait is basically fixed at something on the order of 5 feet per second that equates to about 110 pounds (in the horizontal direction) per animal.

Matt

I agree that it is unlikely to exceed 1 hp for an extended time such as in field work. In the interest of historical accuracy, Watt measured the output of an average horse at 22,000 ft-lb/min, 366 ft-lb/sec. Because Watt wanted to rate his steam engines in terms of hp but did not want to overstate the ability of steam engines, he increased his estimate of 1 hp by 50% to 33,000 ft-lb/min, 550 ft-lb/sec. In some of the measurements that I have made I have noticed that a single horse is unlikely to sustain a pulling effort of 1 hp for very long. 2 mph is about 2.9 ft/sec so 1 hp would require a sustained pull of about 190 lbf at that speed. 190 lbf is equivalent to a stoneboat load of about 475 lbs on firm ground. Most conditioned horses or oxen can generate 1 hp or more for short periods, but sustaining that level of pull is another matter.

[Tim Harrigan]

mstacy;22043 wrote:

Great question George. I wish I knew the answer. It would be extremely helpful to have basic data on draft requirements for various pieces of equipment (plows, tedders, mowers, etc).

Has anyone seen this sort of data (pounds required to pull various implements)? This ties into the work that Tim Harrigan and Andy have been doing.

With draft animals we’re working with limited power, delivered over a fairly limited speed range. A tractor has extra power to waste and multiple gear ratios to optimize shaft speed relative to ground speed.

I’m convinced that my MD9 mower is far heavier than it needs to be to provide enough traction to work.

Matt and George, I am gearing up to do some pulling force evaluations with updated instrumentation that will merge location from a GPS with pulling forces from a hydraulic pull meter and record the information at a rate of 10 measurements per second. It will be very informative because you will see the magnitude of the pulling force and how it changed with slope, tractive surface, speed etc. The first project will be an evaluation of Andy’s draft buffer. I am also quite interested in evaluating these ground driven pto carts but I do not have access to one. I have had some discussions of evaluating draft of haying equipment with Dr. Ken Mulder up at Green Mountain College in VT so perhaps those things will come together next summer.

We had some detailed discussions of tedders earlier this fall so you can see the comments from some of the folks using these tedders with ground-driven carts. I have used a Grimm style tedder/rake with my yearling steers in a first cutting hay crop so I know the draft for that type of machine is not particularly challenging, at least on fairly level ground. I have not used a rotary tedder with draft animals but I remember using a 10 ft rotary tedder in first cut alfalfa with a 30-hp tractor and I was surprised at how much the rotary tedder challenged the tractor, but that was at a faster speed than draft animals.

My take on a rotary tedder is that it is most effective when used within a few hours of a heavy first cutting. It takes a lot of force to move the tedder and accelerate a heavy, wet hay crop so the draft force will be considerable in those conditions. In a light or drier crop the draft will be considerably less. Uphill will add to the draft, how much depends on the slope. I noticed you have some pretty good slopes up there in VT. Maybe you have the option to use 3 horses if necessary.

From a hay quality perspective my sense is the grimm tedder will be more favorable in second cutting and in first cutting closer to baling when the crop is drier, rotary will be more favorable earlier in first cutting. The rotary has more potential for leaf shatter and dry matter loss. But the rotary is wider and will cover more ground. If performance is speed and ease of use most folks would go with the rotary.

[Tim Harrigan]

Any connection with the ‘slash and burn’ techniques used in tropical areas over the ages? 😮

[Tim Harrigan]

I am aware of the discussion but have not pursued it. My first question though would be regarding the practicality of it. How much is needed to make a positive impact? Is a practical scale a flower pot, backyard garden, few acre vegetable garden or bigger?

[Author]

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